For all of the Fire Tim Banks Folks

#151
#151
volbound1700 said:
I am going off what I watch in the games. In, both Florida and Missouri games we started out in a hole because we could not get the defense off the field. We even took a lead in Florida only to give up a massive run for TD. Just go back and watch the critical defensive lapses and the time of possession issues.
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What about the offensive lapses? What about the statistical decline on the offense? Has that affected our ability to win games?
 
#152
#152
Before you come at me bro, I'm not calling for anyone to be fired. I never have. But here is the proof that there is a major issue on 3rd down and long. It needs to be fixed. Banks seems stubborn about making adjustments to his game plan, but maybe that's more of an observation than fact. Below are the facts in the matter.

I got bored with the arguing in this thread and did a compilation of all the 3rd and longs in 3/4 losses. I then arbitrarily chose any third down of 5 yards or more, aka 3rd and long, because that's usually how its referred to by those in the industry. I was helping my grandmother sort through my recently passed grandfather's clothing getting it ready to donate during the UGA-ly game so I never went back. That whole day was one I'd soon forget.

Everyone can scream about talent gaps, missed tackles, no pressure, etc. There really isn't a talent gap between the Vols, Florida, and Missouri. Sure injuries played havoc, but they did on all 3 of those teams.

I would argue that its even or the Vols have the edge over Mizzou based on On3 and 247 rankings over the last 3 years and are essentially equal with Florida. I'm not saying they don't need more talent. I am saying its not as significant as the gap between us and Bama or UGAly and certainly doesnt justify getting their doors blown off for 6/8 quarters in those two games.


247 Rankings by Class

2023 - Vols were 4, Florida 5, Mizzou 13

2022 - Mizzou 6, Vols 7, Florida 8

2021 - Florida 5, Vols 8, Mizzou 10



On3 Rankings by Class

2023 -Florida was 4, Vols were 5, and Mizzou 12

2022 -Vols 5, Mizzou 8, Florida 10

2021 - Florida 5, Vols 7, Mizzou 11

The 3rd down issue is a schematic issue as much as anything. On a few of these plays below, our best rusher was DROPPING IN FREAKING COVERAGE, while rushing 3 down lineman. They ALL share the blame. This is a team sport. It's all at their feet to fix it. But it starts at the top with Heup and his Defensive staff. You have to get off the field on 3rd and long, especially when you have an opportunity to get good field position/ flip the field.

The following were defensive busts on 3rd and long. All of them obviously extended drives. Most of them led to scores. 1/3 of them are 3rd and 10 or more (5/14 or 36%). Fourteen 3rd and long busts in 3 games. Keep in mind, I didn't count all the third downs surrendered. Just those 5 yards or longer.


Florida

3rd & 11 at FLA 46

(11:33 - 1st) Graham Mertz pass complete to Eugene Wilson III for 11 yds to the TENN 43 for a 1ST down

3rd & 5 at TENN 38

(9:52 - 1st) Trevor Etienne run for 12 yds to the TENN 26 for a 1ST down

3rd & 5 at FLA 30

(4:42 - 1st) Graham Mertz pass complete to Caleb Douglas for 8 yds to the FLA 38 for a 1ST down

3rd & 5 at FLA 35

(0:09 - 1st) Graham Mertz run for 6 yds to the FLA 41 for a 1ST down

3rd & 12 at FLA 39

(13:19 - 2nd) Graham Mertz pass complete to Kahleil Jackson for 18 yds to the TENN 43 for a 1ST down

3rd & 7 at TENN 13

(9:50 - 2nd) Graham Mertz pass complete to Ricky Pearsall for 9 yds to the TENN 4 for a 1ST down




Bama

3rd & 7 at TENN 46

(9:09 - 2nd) Jalen Milroe pass complete to Jermaine Burton for 22 yds to the TENN 24 for a 1ST down


3rd & 7 at TENN 10

(7:05 - 2nd) Jalen Milroe pass complete to Jermaine Burton for 10 yds for a TD (Will Reichard KICK)


3rd & 10 at ALA 35

(12:38 - 4th) Jalen Milroe run for 15 yds to the 50 yard line for a 1ST down




Mizzou

3rd & 9 at MIZ 15

(10:11 - 1st) Brady Cook run for 12 yds to the MIZ 27 for a 1ST down


3rd & 7 at TENN 29

(12:25 - 2nd) Brady Cook pass complete to Mekhi Miller for 22 yds to the TENN 7 for a 1ST down


3rd & 6 at MIZ 7

(9:08 - 2nd) Brady Cook run for 10 yds to the MIZ 17 for a 1ST down


3rd & 10 at TENN 30

(7:42 - 3rd) Brady Cook pass complete to Cody Schrader for 23 yds to the TENN 7 for a 1ST down


3rd & 10 at MIZ 1

(15:00 - 4th) Brady Cook run for 24 yds to the MIZ 25 for a 1ST down
 
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#153
#153
pimo1 said:
never, we have had some good individual players but never a great secondary. I have heard people complaining about DB's not turning their head around every season for over 30 years. People have some weird ways of remembering things. The Fulmer years were the peak of UT football period unless you wanna go back to the times before TV existed and refs rode dinosaurs. UT has historically always been a good team but folks are acting like we had some kinda dynasty that should be revived and it never happened. People look over at the guy next door and think 'we should be able to do that also'. Based on what? Bama actually had a Dynasty before Saban....So did UGA. in the MODERN era. UT had a run with Fulmer of our 6 nattys only 2 happened after the advent of color TV.
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The 1999 defense had Deon Grant, Dwayne Goodrich, and Andre Lott. If I recall correctly all 3 of them played on Sunday. I'd take those 3 over any 3 we've had in recent memory or in Vol history.

As far as dynasty, 15 years ago Tennessee was a top 10 all time program in wins and bowl appearances. Is that a dynasty, no, but that would secure a spot in "blue bloods" portion of NCAA football history. I haven't looked up the stats in a while considering how much the football team has sucked so I'm not sure if that's true any more.
 
#154
#154
VOLfrombama said:
Before you come at me bro, I'm not calling for anyone to be fired. I never have. But here is the proof that there is a major issue on 3rd down and long. It needs to be fixed. Banks seems stubborn about making adjustments to his game plan, but maybe that's more of an observation than fact. Below are the facts in the matter.

I got bored with the arguing in this thread and did a compilation of all the 3rd and longs in 3/4 losses. I then arbitrarily chose any third down of 5 yards or more, aka 3rd and long, because that's usually how its referred to by those in the industry. I was helping my grandmother sort through my recently passed grandfather's clothing getting it ready to donate during the UGA-ly game so I never went back. That whole day was one I'd soon forget.

Everyone can scream about talent gaps, missed tackles, no pressure, etc. There really isn't a talent gap between the Vols, Florida, and Missouri. Sure injuries played havoc, but they did on all 3 of those teams.

I would argue that its even or the Vols have the edge over Mizzou based on On3 and 247 rankings over the last 3 years and are essentially equal with Florida. I'm not saying they don't need more talent. I am saying its not as significant as the gap between us and Bama or UGAly and certainly doesnt justify getting their doors blown off for 6/8 quarters in those two games.


247 Rankings by Class

2023 - Vols were 4, Florida 5, Mizzou 13

2022 - Mizzou 6, Vols 7, Florida 8

2021 - Florida 5, Vols 8, Mizzou 10



On3 Rankings by Class

2023 -Florida was 4, Vols were 5, and Mizzou 12

2022 -Vols 5, Mizzou 8, Florida 10

2021 - Florida 5, Vols 7, Mizzou 11

The 3rd down issue is a schematic issue as much as anything. On a few of these plays below, our best rusher was DROPPING IN FREAKING COVERAGE, while rushing 3 down lineman. They ALL share the blame. This is a team sport. It's all at their feet to fix it. But it starts at the top with Heup and his Defensive staff. You have to get off the field on 3rd and long, especially when you have an opportunity to get good field position/ flip the field.

The following were defensive busts on 3rd and long. All of them obviously extended drives. Most of them led to scores. 1/3 of them are 3rd and 10 or more (5/14 or 36%). Fourteen 3rd and long busts in 3 games. Keep in mind, I didn't count all the third downs surrendered. Just those 5 yards or longer.


Florida

3rd & 11 at FLA 46

(11:33 - 1st) Graham Mertz pass complete to Eugene Wilson III for 11 yds to the TENN 43 for a 1ST down

3rd & 5 at TENN 38

(9:52 - 1st) Trevor Etienne run for 12 yds to the TENN 26 for a 1ST down

3rd & 5 at FLA 30

(4:42 - 1st) Graham Mertz pass complete to Caleb Douglas for 8 yds to the FLA 38 for a 1ST down

3rd & 5 at FLA 35

(0:09 - 1st) Graham Mertz run for 6 yds to the FLA 41 for a 1ST down

3rd & 12 at FLA 39

(13:19 - 2nd) Graham Mertz pass complete to Kahleil Jackson for 18 yds to the TENN 43 for a 1ST down

3rd & 7 at TENN 13

(9:50 - 2nd) Graham Mertz pass complete to Ricky Pearsall for 9 yds to the TENN 4 for a 1ST down




Bama

3rd & 7 at TENN 46

(9:09 - 2nd) Jalen Milroe pass complete to Jermaine Burton for 22 yds to the TENN 24 for a 1ST down


3rd & 7 at TENN 10

(7:05 - 2nd) Jalen Milroe pass complete to Jermaine Burton for 10 yds for a TD (Will Reichard KICK)


3rd & 10 at ALA 35

(12:38 - 4th) Jalen Milroe run for 15 yds to the 50 yard line for a 1ST down




Mizzou

3rd & 9 at MIZ 15

(10:11 - 1st) Brady Cook run for 12 yds to the MIZ 27 for a 1ST down


3rd & 7 at TENN 29

(12:25 - 2nd) Brady Cook pass complete to Mekhi Miller for 22 yds to the TENN 7 for a 1ST down


3rd & 6 at MIZ 7

(9:08 - 2nd) Brady Cook run for 10 yds to the MIZ 17 for a 1ST down


3rd & 10 at TENN 30

(7:42 - 3rd) Brady Cook pass complete to Cody Schrader for 23 yds to the TENN 7 for a 1ST down


3rd & 10 at MIZ 1

(15:00 - 4th) Brady Cook run for 24 yds to the MIZ 25 for a 1ST down
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Thank you. This is exactly my thought as well. If you WATCH the games, this #4 defense argument doesn't work. Also, the decline in offensive performance also coincides with not getting the ball as much and the offense not having a chance to score. We literally got the ball only 1 time in the entire first quarter against Missouri.
 
#156
#156
FollowTheLeader said:
What about the offensive lapses? What about the statistical decline on the offense? Has that affected our ability to win games?
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Offense definitely looks bad when they can't get the ball because the defense is on the field most of the game because they can't stop 3rd and long pass plays.
 
#160
#160
Tman44 said:
I have been on the side of keeping Tim Banks throughout this season. I have researched and posted supportive stats, etc. Watching the Vandy game, we just looked pathetic on defense. Vandy scored 24 points on the Vols. That is more than they scored on Mizzou; UF; UGA; Ole Miss; Auburn and SCar. This certainly isn't indicative of an "Elite Defense," as CJH said was the standard under his watch. So we axe Banks, who do we get? How about Dave Aranda? I would be for upsetting the apple cart if we could swing that hire. Sure, he is still the HC at Baylor, but I wouldn't expect the folks in Waco to keep him around after this dismal season. I remember when Botch moved away from Jancek for Shoop, who was supposed to be our defensive savior, and it got only worse. I don't want to see that situation but I just can't argue for keeping him anymore.

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Baylor is not stupid. They aren’t going to fire Dave Aranda
 
#161
#161
General Jack said:
Agree.

The right players can make mediocre coaches look great and the wrong players can make great coaches look mediocre. Happens all the time, more noticeable with the QB position but valid across the board.

Banks would look a lot different if we had Georgia or Alabama’s roster, especially their DBs.
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I see what you did there slipping that in there about the QB.
 
#162
#162
When your defensive scheme is to guard a spot in the secondary and not a player then you will keep getting the wide open receivers in our secondary with fours guys standing around him on their spot. That is what I saw. Is that Matinez or Banks ? Can't say for sure but Banks is the head of the defense so it all goes back to him.
 
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#163
#163
Tman44 said:
I have been on the side of keeping Tim Banks throughout this season. I have researched and posted supportive stats, etc. Watching the Vandy game, we just looked pathetic on defense. Vandy scored 24 points on the Vols. That is more than they scored on Mizzou; UF; UGA; Ole Miss; Auburn and SCar. This certainly isn't indicative of an "Elite Defense," as CJH said was the standard under his watch. So we axe Banks, who do we get? How about Dave Aranda? I would be for upsetting the apple cart if we could swing that hire. Sure, he is still the HC at Baylor, but I wouldn't expect the folks in Waco to keep him around after this dismal season. I remember when Botch moved away from Jancek for Shoop, who was supposed to be our defensive savior, and it got only worse. I don't want to see that situation but I just can't argue for keeping him anymore.

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They scored 10 points on our first team defense!! yeah our third string gave up 14 garbage points I don't see THAT part of the argument but agree with playing against UGGA and Mizzou for those games
 
#164
#164
VolRage said:
The 1999 defense had Deon Grant, Dwayne Goodrich, and Andre Lott. If I recall correctly all 3 of them played on Sunday. I'd take those 3 over any 3 we've had in recent memory or in Vol history.

As far as dynasty, 15 years ago Tennessee was a top 10 all time program in wins and bowl appearances. Is that a dynasty, no, but that would secure a spot in "blue bloods" portion of NCAA football history. I haven't looked up the stats in a while considering how much the football team has sucked so I'm not sure if that's true any more.
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That was a good secondary... not great. Yes all of them made the league Goodrich totaled 8 tackles and 1 kickoff return for 12 yards. Lott had 34 tackles in 4 years. Grant was the Star and had a great career with the Giants.
Saying a team had backs that made the league means not much.. this weekend in the NFL Alontae Taylor, Cam Sutton, And Theo Jackson all recorded stats in games and are all either starters or contributors to their teams. (Emmanuel Mosely is actually on IR and would have been Detroit's other starting CB opposite Cam). With the exception of Grant their NFL careers are better than the 2 you named already and we will put another couple guys in the league this year Tank and Hadden who are both better than Lott and Goodrich. All 4 of those guys played together meaning by your standards they are a better secondary than the one you named.

UT has always had talented players. Loot at NFL rosters any given year and thats clear. In fact the NFL seems to appreciate the talent of players more than the fans because the guys that tend to do the best are guys we wrote off (hey there Arian Foster) or said would never be starters (howdy Josh Dobbs tough loss tonight). I put a follow on every vol that gets drafted on espn and its interesting how most games you see vols pop up in there and even transfers like Ty Chandler and such.

Coaches are not worried about beating the spread. They want to 1 win games and 2 stay as healthy as possible while doing it. Yes it sucks Vandy got 2 garbage time TD's against us. But lets be real those 14 points are not why we dropped from rankings.. it was them reacting to the backlash that we were even ranked last week. Funny story I bet we are still ranked in the only poll that counts tomorrow night. Strength of schedule is a thing.
 
#165
#165
Volteacher said:
They scored 10 points on our first team defense!! yeah our third string gave up 14 garbage points I don't see THAT part of the argument but agree with playing against UGGA and Mizzou for those games
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As I said, I always liked the man . I'm just saying it is going to be hard to upgrade. Pretty much sounds like we agree.
 
#166
#166
volbound1700 said:
I am not in the fire Banks camp but your arguments are not looking at all the facts. The defense is allowing teams to stay on the field almost entire quarters.

Tennessee had the ball ONCE in the first quarter against Missouri. Of course the offense looks bad when they NEVER get the ball because we can't get the defense off the field.

I am getting tired of seeing Tennessee constantly give up pass plays that no one in the SEC (even Vandy) are giving up or staying on the field 80% of the game or longer. They can't stop teams on 3rd down because they don't play tight coverage. It is clear now that people are trolling for facts that support them and not really reading and addressing posts.
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2022- Offense time of possession averaged 25:15 minutes a game. 2023- time of possession was 24:25. I get it that fans are more forgiving when the team wins 10 games, but our offense also didn't convert on 3rd and 4th downs at the same rate they did last year while the defense was statistically improving. The defense's warts are more visible when the point production goes down. Complimentary football.
 
#167
#167
ksgovols said:
2022- Offense time of possession averaged 25:15 minutes a game. 2023- time of possession was 24:25. I get it that fans are more forgiving when the team wins 10 games, but our offense also didn't convert on 3rd and 4th downs at the same rate they did last year while the defense was statistically improving. The defense's warts are more visible when the point production goes down. Complimentary football.
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I was frustrated with defense last year as well... I don't like firing Banks but we need to do something to fix our issues.
 
#169
#169
Only half joking here.

But if we are going to continue letting teams March it down the field while we play that soft zone, then we should just onside kick it every time. Maybe we get lucky and get one or two a game.

It would shorten the length of the field for our defense and maybe they won’t be as gassed later in the game.

Half the time I feel like Banks is just laying back and letting our opponents get into the red zone so he can play for stopping a TD and holding them to a field goal.

I know this sounds crazy. Been a long day at work and my brain is tired.
 
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