For those still on the fence about Jones....

#151
#151
ReaderVol said:
You're judging a painting before it's finished.
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No. I'm judging a building project by the progress and quality of progress that's been made.

All rebuilds are different. I know and remember the dumpster fire Jones took over. In spite of many on here, I think we're one year away.
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It doesn't take 4 or 5 years to get to 8 wins if your rebuilding is working. Your analogy was a very poor one but using it... a painting doesn't look like crap then suddenly become a masterpiece with the last stroke. There is recognizable progress.
 
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#153
#153
sjt18 said:
No. I'm judging a building project by the progress and quality of progress that's been made.



It doesn't take 4 or 5 years to get to 8 wins if your rebuilding is working. Your analogy was a very poor one but using it... a painting doesn't look like crap then suddenly become a masterpiece with the last stroke. There is recognizable progress.
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What are you talking about? This is year 3 not 4 or 5. And I think we see 8 wins this year.
 
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#154
#154
sjt18 said:
A year away from what though? A year away from winning the SEC? Probably. A year away from showing reasonable progress and winning 8 plus games...? not if the coaching is good.
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A year from winning the East and competing for an SEC title. Next year is a double digit win season.
 
#155
#155
I'm only concerned about the SEC games. If we crush Oklahoma but do crappy in the SEC than CBJ should go coach in another conference.
That said, the MUST wins are:
Florida
Mizzou
Vandy
Kentucky
Arkansas

South Carolina underachieved last year playing us. I expect them to be ready against us. Mizzou and Florida overachieved while playing us. We are just the better team right now. No excuses
We need to beat Arkansas to prove we are ahead of them. This will help in recruiting
 
#157
#157
Reading some of these posts has me scratching my head. Some point to progress, ok how about two of the best years in memory recruiting players that can lead us back? If that doesn't satisfy you then how about the mending of fences with high school coaches, former players and alums? No none of this shows in the win column but it will. Maybe my age has shown me patience against this concept of our youth of instant gratification.
I am thrilled with what he has accomplished in two years. I think as a whole we have expectations of this year that are as hyped as any I have seen in a while. A must win here,a must win there, really? Everybody chill and enjoy what promises to be an exciting season and for heavens sake stop these damn Op's about Butch. We would have no expectations without him.
 
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#158
#158
Fijivol72 said:
Reading some of these posts has me scratching my head. Some point to progress, ok how about two of the best years in memory recruiting players that can lead us back? If that doesn't satisfy you then how about the mending of fences with high school coaches, former players and alums? No none of this shows in the win column but it will. Maybe my age has shown me patience against this concept of our youth of instant gratification.
I am thrilled with what he has accomplished in two years. I think as a whole we have expectations of this year that are as hyped as any I have seen in a while. A must win here,a must win there, really? Everybody chill and enjoy what promises to be an exciting season and for heavens sake stop these damn Op's about Butch. We would have no expectations without him.
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I agree that up to this point Coach Jones has done just about everything right except 2 things; Vanderbilt 2013 and Florida 2014. He has left wins on the field in both of his first two seasons and for that reason I'm still skeptical as to whether he's the long term answer. I feel that great coaches find a way to win those games and up to this point I don't see a lot of evidence that CBJ has that "killer instinct" to know when/how to put his opponents away.

This season should at worst be an 8-4 year with the talent this team now has. If we go 8-4 I'd say we basically achieved the expected. If we go 9-3 or better then I'd say we overachieved.
 
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#159
#159
Brave Volunteer said:
I agree that up to this point Coach Jones has done just about everything right except 2 things; Vanderbilt 2013 and Florida 2014. He has left wins on the field in both of his first two seasons and for that reason I'm still skeptical as to whether he's the long term answer. I feel that great coaches find a way to win those games and up to this point I don't see a lot of evidence that CBJ has that "killer instinct" to know when/how to put his opponents away.
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You know what... I may be the only one, but I give CBJ a pass in those two games. 2013 wasn't the team he recruited and 2014 he was trying to redshirt Josh Dobbs. TN would have beaten FL pretty bad if they played at the end of last year... they were a completely different team. Now going forward, no more passes. He should beat teams he is supposed to. He has the talent and it is his team.
 
#160
#160
voltn21 said:
You know what... I may be the only one, but I give CBJ a pass in those two games. 2013 wasn't the team he recruited and 2014 he was trying to redshirt Josh Dobbs. TN would have beaten FL pretty bad if they played at the end of last year... they were a completely different team. Now going forward, no more passes. He should beat teams he is supposed to. He has the talent and it is his team.
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I dont! You don't lose to Vanderbilt at home...ever! Especially when it has bowl implications. CBJ coached scared in that game. I could see it in the play calling and I could see it in his body language on the sidelines. He basically abandoned the passing game completely. I know Dobbs was struggling but you can't make your offense so one-dimensional when you're not moving the ball. I don't think Dobbs had one single pass attempt in the 4th quarter.

As for Florida, I get that CBJ wanted to redshirt Dobbs but Worley was getting hammered and we allowed Florida to hang around in that game just long enough to spoil what should've been a memorable home victory in front of a beautiful checkered Neyland. His refusal to play Dobbs in order to preserve his redshirt was wrong!
 
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#162
#162
checkerboards09 said:
We've been "a year away" for 5 years. Time to prove it.
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We've also been very young and "nowhere close to where we need to be". You're absolutely right. It's year 3, we have a lot of experience, a lot of advantages vs a majority of the teams on our schedule and a ton of talent on this team. It's time to live up to some expectations and win some ball games. Period.

No one is saying win 10 or 11 games, win the SEC and make the playoff final four. Just that Butch should win all 6 games in which he'll be heavily favored and win 1/3 or 1/2 of his 6 most difficult games to go 8-4 or 9-3. Barring any major injuries, if he's a good coach and the right coach for our program, he'll do that. If not, he's basically Ron Zook and we'll need to hire a better coach to come win with the talent he assembled.
 
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#163
#163
I think most reasonable fans can agree that, barring many more big injuries, 8 wins is the bar this season. Just like 6 was the bar last season.
 
#164
#164
KBVol said:
We've also been very young and "nowhere close to where we need to be". You're absolutely right. It's year 3, we have a lot of experience, a lot of advantages vs a majority of the teams on our schedule and a ton of talent on this team. It's time to live up to some expectations and win some ball games. Period.

No one is saying win 10 or 11 games, win the SEC and make the playoff final four. Just that Butch should win all 6 games in which he'll be heavily favored and win 1/3 or 1/2 of his 6 most difficult games to go 8-4 or 9-3. Barring any major injuries, if he's a good coach and the right coach for our program, he'll do that. If not, he's basically Ron Zook and we'll need to hire a better coach to come win with the talent he assembled.
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I'm not expecting a NC. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I'd be alright with 8-4 as long as one of those wins is against Florida. That's what I'm most concerned with, beat the damn Gators.
 
#167
#167
checkerboards09 said:
I'm not expecting a NC. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I'd be alright with 8-4 as long as one of those wins is against Florida. That's what I'm most concerned with, beat the damn Gators.
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I know you're not 09, I agreed with your post. It was reasonable and I was attempting to support it.

I'll add one more thought for the apologists who insist that 7 wins would show improvement or who try and argue that "he's actually just in year 2", which is absurd. Butch can lose to Oklahoma at home, Georgia at home, Arkansas at home and Alabama on the road....and while many/most would be disappointed with the losses in Neyland, we'd finish 8-4 and many/most would be "pleased" with an 8 win season and a solid bowl game and chance to win 9 games. That's very, very reasonable and more than fair to Butch IMHO.
 
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#168
#168
whew....ok, hope this doesn't get too long....but it will

Disclaimer up front it may cover concepts and thoughts sprinkled throughout this thread.

I am not on the fence...I am in full Butch mode right now. Why...LEADERSHIP - he is a leader, and the CULTURE he has instilling in this team....our team....IS paying dividends. First year is a wash to a degree because he had to deal with what he had...some guys bought in and others didn't (I've said before...I don't think our vaulted OLine bought in fully...hence Vandy). Last year that young team fought hard for 4 Qtrs and had a lot of close games that could have turned out different...could have been uglier too. 7-6 aint bad for the "youngest" team, that had to replace the entire front lines on O and D, in FBS!

While the injuries and guys bolting is concerning....a. you have to practice hard and b. if guys aren't going to buy in and won't give their all....well, maybe that's the price of building a team....dare I say dynasty.

Butch has proven he can win...maybe in lesser leagues, but he can win. Now, let's think about a diminutive man...whom we like to despise...called Saban. By record...he was a mediocre coach...given a shot at LSU. Guess what, he was slightly above average (to most of VOL nation thinking) for 3 out of the 5 years there and it won't consecutively. He fails in the NFL....what did Bama see....what special sauce did he have....hhmmm....maybe experience and a recipe....he calls it "process" for success.

Moving on. I think there are 4 categories of coaches....sometimes they fall in between the lines and maybe on the cusp of going up or down:

HOF-great
Very Good
Good
Mediocre-Bad

At this particular point in time I think CBJ is between the Good to Very Good....he may need a little more seasoning to move forward and finally reach the HOF level. Think Beamer and VT...how long did they wait...and dude can/could flat out coach. Do you really want to be the program to let this guy go? I say give him at least 5 years; the attitude and difference in culture alone is enough to see he is trying to right the ship and enough to give him a couple more years. To do otherwise, unless you think we can get an absolute homerun hire....and that is subjective as well, is to invite another 2-4 years of mediocrity.

Butch is the guy....he's demonstrated it in various intagibles; that, while may not result in wins and immediate success, do result in building a PROGRAM....and dare I say, dynasty. He still needs to learn and develop himself....maybe some position coaching changes are in order...but the dude will be successful and WE will look back either happy or very pissed (i.e. he leaves and succeeds elsewhere)....depending on how this shakes out.

I don't apologize for the length....I know the microwave popcorn crowd won't appreciate....but these are my thoughts, as succinctly as possible, given the context.
 
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#169
#169
JC61 said:
whew....ok, hope this doesn't get too long....but it will

Disclaimer up front it may cover concepts and thoughts sprinkled throughout this thread.

I am not on the fence...I am in full Butch mode right now. Why...LEADERSHIP - he is a leader, and the CULTURE he has instilling in this team....our team....IS paying dividends. First year is a wash to a degree because he had to deal with what he had...some guys bought in and others didn't (I've said before...I don't think our vaulted OLine bought in fully...hence Vandy). Last year that young team fought hard for 4 Qtrs and had a lot of close games that could have turned out different...could have been uglier too. 7-6 aint bad for the "youngest" team, that had to replace the entire front lines on O and D, in FBS!

While the injuries and guys bolting is concerning....a. you have to practice hard and b. if guys aren't going to buy in and won't give their all....well, maybe that's the price of building a team....dare I say dynasty.

Butch has proven he can win...maybe in lesser leagues, but he can win. Now, let's think about a diminutive man...whom we like to despise...called Saban. By record...he was a mediocre coach...given a shot at LSU. Guess what, he was slightly above average (to most of VOL nation thinking) for 3 out of the 5 years there and it won't consecutively. He fails in the NFL....what did Bama see....what special sauce did he have....hhmmm....maybe experience and a recipe....he calls it "process" for success.

Moving on. I think there are 4 categories of coaches....sometimes they fall in between the lines and maybe on the cusp of going up or down:

HOF-great
Very Good
Good
Mediocre-Bad

At this particular point in time I think CBJ is between the Good to Very Good....he may need a little more seasoning to move forward and finally reach the HOF level. Think Beamer and VT...how long did they wait...and dude can/could flat out coach. Do you really want to be the program to let this guy go? I say give him at least 5 years; the attitude and difference in culture alone is enough to see he is trying to right the ship and enough to give him a couple more years. To do otherwise, unless you think we can get an absolute homerun hire....and that is subjective as well, is to invite another 2-4 years of mediocrity.

Butch is the guy....he's demonstrated it in various intagibles; that, while may not result in wins and immediate success, do result in building a PROGRAM....and dare I say, dynasty. He still needs to learn and develop himself....maybe some position coaching changes are in order...but the dude will be successful and WE will look back either happy or very pissed (i.e. he leaves and succeeds elsewhere)....depending on how this shakes out.

I don't apologize for the length....I know the microwave popcorn crowd won't appreciate....but these are my thoughts, as succinctly as possible, given the context.
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Lol
 

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#171
#171
checkerboards09 said:
As we all know, WINS are what make or break a coaching career. I happen to still be one of those on the fence about Jones until I see results on the field, which should be understandable. Looking at the big picture, for me, 3-1 with the loss being to Oklahoma or 4-0 would get me on the wagon 100%. Jones has been incredible with everything else, he's bringing in the talent, etc., but the big wins gotta start early this year with the Gators being right there. For those still in doubt, what point in the season would get you fully on board?
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Until a loss the next week takes them to 4-1 or 3-2. Then you will be back on the fence.
 
#172
#172
KBVol said:
I know you're not 09, I agreed with your post. It was reasonable and I was attempting to support it.

I'll add one more thought for the apologists who insist that 7 wins would show improvement or who try and argue that "he's actually just in year 2", which is absurd. Butch can lose to Oklahoma at home, Georgia at home, Arkansas at home and Alabama on the road....and while many/most would be disappointed with the losses in Neyland, we'd finish 8-4 and many/most would be "pleased" with an 8 win season and a solid bowl game and chance to win 9 games. That's very, very reasonable and more than fair to Butch IMHO.
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My apologies KB, misunderstood the post. 7 wins would most likely mean Dobbs went down or the team had a total meltdown which falls on Jones. I won't be ecstatic with 8, but I would be pleased. 9+ and its full steam ahead. That Year 0 crap is for the birds, btw I agree.
 
#174
#174
I am sold on Butch until the end of next season...period. His rebuilding has warranted that. I will look at the entire body of work then and see what I think.

For those of you putting emphasis on this game or that, it is ridiculous. So, if we beat Alabama, but lose to Florida, he has lost your faith forever. Or, if we go 7-5 this season, but 15-0 next, he is terrible? Again, ridiculous. Ultimatums are pointless. Let the whole two seasons play out and enjoy. We are getting better.
 
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#175
#175
I think those of you on the fence should go ahead slide off toward the Butch side of things. This should not be a make or break year for Butch. Most people in national media look to next year for the vols being legitimate East contenders. I think all of the buzz around the program says this year, which makes some want to go find a fence to jump on if the team does not live up to the hype. It's this type of knee jerk reaction that can hold a program back. Looking ahead to the future recruiting classes, this team will be solid with some good depth. Any negative reaction or hot seat talk after this season would only weaken what this staff has worked so hard for. In this world of instant gratification, we need to be patient. For you fence sitters, what coach could Dave Hart hire that would do better than what Jones has done for this program?
 
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