Found out during worship yesterday....

#201
#201
IPorange said:
The answer is economic. A society where anyone has a chance to succeed and advance to a higher standard of living will eliminate a lot of the desperation and despair, as well as hatred, that fuels extremism.

Unfortunately, when oil or oil demand dries up, it's going to get a lot worse.
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Now that's a logical response... are you taking a break from your probing??? :)
 
#202
#202
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Now that's a logical response... are you taking a break from your probing??? :)
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No. We are just talking about something that isn't diametrically opposed to logic (religion). So now religious people will shift gears and start agreeing, instead of falling back on emotional personal responses like when the Bible or rival religious texts are discussed.
 
#203
#203
IPorange said:
No. We are just talking about something that isn't diametrically opposed to logic (religion). So now religious people will shift gears and start agreeing, instead of falling back on emotional personal responses like when the Bible or rival religious texts are discussed.
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Yep... there's goes the logic and back comes the "grouping" thing that you chastize others for doing.
 
#204
#204
rjd970 said:
Considering Islam has only been around for 700 years(Christianity has a 1300 year headstart) I would think it it is at least equal.

Only looking at today is shortsighted. We'll see where Islam is in another 600 years and compare it to today to see where we stand.
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How can anyone these days be that ignorant about islam??

Islam has been around 1400 years.

Muslims brutally ruled the Iberian penensula (spain and portugal) for 700 years.

Much of the 700 year advance of Christianity was wiped out by muslim genocide in the first century of islam, first in the Saudi penensula, then the Tigris, Euphrates valleys, all accross North Africa from Egypt to Morocco then up into the Iberian penensula, being only turned back when in to present day France.

Millitant islam imposed itself from mecca and medina accross all the mideastern area conquering as far as the Balkans at the eastern gate, being only stopped by Dracula at the Iron gate (Straights of the Danube), and by the Khazzars (Ashkenazim Jews) at the eastern gate
and eventually stopped there after the failed siege of Viena but slaughtering the Zoroastrians (remember the Magi at the birth of Jesus?) and Christians of Persia, sweeping through the Khyber pass and slaughtering millions of Hindus, being only stopped by the sheer number to be killed or captured for slaves.

They sailed up and down both the east and west coast of Africa taking slaves and prosletizing by force, conquered Sicily and made many attacks on the hapless Italian people who lived near the coasts of Italy, even exacting tribute from the Vatican itself.

They took slaves as far west as Newfoundland, capturing 800 slaves from Iceland in just one raid.

If you somehow think the teachings of the Qu'ran are going to change then you are sorely wrong.

Today in Kosovo and some parts of central Asia, Churches as old as 700 years are being completely destroyed and even cemetaries being desecrated, headstones and markers removed, sometimes even the bones dug up and scattered.




rjd970 said:
My opinion is it is the perfect example of the danger of religious superstition. Is there any other complete waste of human life in history than those lost fighting over a worthless patch of desert on the Mediterranean?
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Again, how can one be so ignorant about the cause of the Crusades.

To say the very least the muslims don't rule Jersalem, a fact that keeps them in constant turmoil.

Islamic tolerance is a myth.
 
#206
#206
ridethelightening said:
I just blame Abraham and his impatience in what the Lord promised him. This can all be traced back
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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You can tace that impatience back to Abraham's wife.

So far I havn't come accross any claim that Muhammed is descended from ishmael, although I get your point.
 
#207
#207
The reason things are so far behind in the middle east cannot be attributed to any one thing. One major reason is the strict enforcement of Islamic law and the lack of freedom and acceptance of differing ideas and opinions even by those who believe in the same fundamental beliefs. It is almost as if there is an attitude of "if it isn't in the Koran it shouldn't exist". This has been seized upon and used by the ruling classes there to keep the people subdued and their anger focused outward instead of toward their leaders.

Eventually what will happen is they either tire of this hard line interpretation of Islam and become open to outsiders and tolerant of other ideas or they will follow the path that will ultimately lead only to more conflict and perpetuate even more disdain for their people if not their faith.

Some will say that there are a number of wealthy middle eastern countries where the people do not harbor so much animosity for anything other than Islam and they would be correct. The reason they set themselves apart is because they are more open to the worlds market place of ideas and are successful because of it.

Just my thoughts, you can bash away all you like.
 
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#209
#209
gsvol said:
How can anyone these days be that ignorant about islam??

Islam has been around 1400 years.

Muslims brutally ruled the Iberian penensula (spain and portugal) for 700 years.

Much of the 700 year advance of Christianity was wiped out by muslim genocide in the first century of islam, first in the Saudi penensula, then the Tigris, Euphrates valleys, all accross North Africa from Egypt to Morocco then up into the Iberian penensula, being only turned back when in to present day France.

Millitant islam imposed itself from mecca and medina accross all the mideastern area conquering as far as the Balkans at the eastern gate, being only stopped by Dracula at the Iron gate (Straights of the Danube), and by the Khazzars (Ashkenazim Jews) at the eastern gate
and eventually stopped there after the failed siege of Viena but slaughtering the Zoroastrians (remember the Magi at the birth of Jesus?) and Christians of Persia, sweeping through the Khyber pass and slaughtering millions of Hindus, being only stopped by the sheer number to be killed or captured for slaves.

They sailed up and down both the east and west coast of Africa taking slaves and prosletizing by force, conquered Sicily and made many attacks on the hapless Italian people who lived near the coasts of Italy, even exacting tribute from the Vatican itself.

They took slaves as far west as Newfoundland, capturing 800 slaves from Iceland in just one raid.

If you somehow think the teachings of the Qu'ran are going to change then you are sorely wrong.

Today in Kosovo and some parts of central Asia, Churches as old as 700 years are being completely destroyed and even cemetaries being desecrated, headstones and markers removed, sometimes even the bones dug up and scattered.






Again, how can one be so ignorant about the cause of the Crusades.

To say the very least the muslims don't rule Jersalem, a fact that keeps them in constant turmoil.

Islamic tolerance is a myth.
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I meant it has been around for 1300 years, it was formed around 700 ad. I ask again, have you even opened the Qu'ran?


And as far as the bolded, pray tell, what parts of the Bible have changed from the days of the inquisition and witch hunts? The constant is beliefs. Beliefs don't change, society does. How many of the inquisitors do you think read the NT? I would bet almost all of them.

I can almost guarantee a civilized, modern, free, enlightened middle east won't be much different than the US is today. Change society and people overlook ignorant and stupid parts of the dominant belief system.
 
#210
#210
rjd970 said:
I meant it has been around for 1300 years, it was formed around 700 ad. I ask again, have you even opened the Qu'ran?


And as far as the bolded, pray tell, what parts of the Bible have changed from the days of the inquisition and witch hunts? The constant is beliefs. Beliefs don't change, society does. How many of the inquisitors do you think read the NT? I would bet almost all of them.

I can almost guarantee a civilized, modern, free, enlightened middle east won't be much different than the US is today. Change society and people overlook ignorant and stupid parts of the dominant belief system.
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Where the education levels that high then where the average citizen could even read? I was taught that the majority of people could not read and received their teachings from the priest. It this is true, then the priest could tell them virtually anything and they would believe it. So if this is true, these inquisitors never read the Bible. I believe its not that much society changing, but people learning to read that lead to changes in peoples understanding of the Bible. See the founding of America.
 
#211
#211
Oldvol75 said:
Where the education levels that high then where the average citizen could even read? I was taught that the majority of people could not read and received their teachings from the priest. It this is true, then the priest could tell them virtually anything and they would believe it. So if this is true, these inquisitors never read the Bible. I believe its not that much society changing, but people learning to read that lead to changes in peoples understanding of the Bible. See the founding of America.
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Aquinas found all the justification he needed for the inquisition. I guess we are too assume he never read the Bible?
 
#212
#212
Oldvol75 said:
I believe its not that much society changing, but people learning to read that lead to changes in peoples understanding of the Bible.
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Knowledge. Knowledge is power. When the general populace began to learn to read, they relied less on priests to interpret and instruct.

There are other sources of information today that are readily at hand. Scientific advancement brings new things to light nearly every day. The internet has made the ability to learn about virtually anything nearly effortless. People today have the opportunity to gather knowledge like no time before in our history, and I expect that to continue.

For that reason I truly believe, and I say this not to disparage anyone's belief, for this is my own, that religion will one day become obsolete. There are fewer people who attend a church today than in times past and I would assert that the median age of regular church goers is quite a bit higher than in years past.

Again, I respect everyone's right to believe what they wish, whether they worship Jesus Christ or an old oak tree stump. These are just my thoughts. :hi:

My .02 worth, YMMV, offer not good in Alaska and Hawaii, etc., etc.
 
#213
#213
VolInMn said:
Knowledge. Knowledge is power. When the general populace began to learn to read, they relied less on priests to interpret and instruct.

There are other sources of information today that are readily at hand. Scientific advancement brings new things to light nearly every day. The internet has made the ability to learn about virtually anything nearly effortless. People today have the opportunity to gather knowledge like no time before in our history, and I expect that to continue.

For that reason I truly believe, and I say this not to disparage anyone's belief, for this is my own, that religion will one day become obsolete. There are fewer people who attend a church today than in times past and I would assert that the median age of regular church goers is quite a bit higher than in years past.

Again, I respect everyone's right to believe what they wish, whether they worship Jesus Christ or an old oak tree stump. These are just my thoughts. :hi:

My .02 worth, YMMV, offer not good in Alaska and Hawaii, etc., etc.
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Hard to disagree with that. It is happening at a rapid pace.

Depending on who you ask, there will come a day where it will not exist.
 
#214
#214
Hard to disagree... but I guess that's why I'm here.

I think the internet, science, etc. has had very little to do with fewer people attending church or being involved in a religion. For the most part, I would say religion itself is to blame... too hypocritical and judgemental in many case. Not to mention the bad PR that the catholic church continues to deal with.

Contrastly, I believe the internet has opened the doors to Christianity to many who may never have walked into a church door. They can study, research, and even "attend" churches right from the comforts of their homes.
 
#215
#215
VolInMn said:
Knowledge. Knowledge is power. When the general populace began to learn to read, they relied less on priests to interpret and instruct.

There are other sources of information today that are readily at hand. Scientific advancement brings new things to light nearly every day. The internet has made the ability to learn about virtually anything nearly effortless. People today have the opportunity to gather knowledge like no time before in our history, and I expect that to continue.

For that reason I truly believe, and I say this not to disparage anyone's belief, for this is my own, that religion will one day become obsolete. There are fewer people who attend a church today than in times past and I would assert that the median age of regular church goers is quite a bit higher than in years past.

Again, I respect everyone's right to believe what they wish, whether they worship Jesus Christ or an old oak tree stump. These are just my thoughts. :hi:

My .02 worth, YMMV, offer not good in Alaska and Hawaii, etc., etc.
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But thou, O Daniel,shut up the word, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Daniel 12:4

Funny you should talk about knowledge increasing!

Theres more people in the world than there has ever been, that may have something to do with it.
 
#216
#216
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#217
#217
BeecherVol said:
Hard to disagree with that. It is happening at a rapid pace.

Depending on who you ask, there will come a day where it will not exist.
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There will always be some segment of the population that will believe a sort of greater power of some sort or another, imo. We are hard-wired for it.
 
#218
#218
rjd970 said:
Aquinas found all the justification he needed for the inquisition. I guess we are too assume he never read the Bible?
Click to expand...

How many of the inquisitors do you think read the NT? I would bet almost all of them.

But this quote is from you, thus why I wrote what I wrote. You didn't mention Aquinas reading, you said inquisitors.
 
#219
#219
Oldvol75 said:
But thou, O Daniel,shut up the word, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Daniel 12:4

Funny you should talk about knowledge increasing!

Theres more people in the world than there has ever been, that may have something to do with it.
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I'm not sure I get your point...are you saying that the fact that more people are gaining knowledge is fulfillment of that verse in Daniel?
 
#220
#220
VolInMn said:
I'm not sure I get your point...are you saying that the fact that more people are gaining knowledge is fulfillment of that verse in Daniel?
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Daniel is a book of prophecy that deals with end time predictions. Old Testament. Yes!
 
#221
#221
IPorange said:
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors"

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace"

"God does not forbid you from dealing kindly and justly with those who do not fight you for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes: for God loveth those who are just."

"Those who believe and those who are Jews, Christians, and Sabeans; any who believe in God and the Last Day and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord and on them shall be no fear and they will not grieve"

What a sinister book!
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These are verses written early in the Qu'ran in Mecca when Muhammed had few followers and was dealing from a position of weakness, after he migrated to Medina and through deception conquered that city and grew his numbers considerably then the verses grew progressively more warlike and agressive and then after he came back and slew his enemies in Mecca they grew even more cruel and barbaric.

All Islamic scholars are in agreement that any later revelation of Muhammed takes precedence over former revelations.

For instance the first verse you quote, later the law of sharia is this; "when military victory is not at hand it is permissable to sue for peace but make no agreement that exceeds ten years and if you find a better way then violate the treaty."
 
#223
#223
rjd970 said:
It doesn't surprise me on bit you would post this nonsense. You obviously haven't even read the Qu'ran. I don't blame you, you only go by what you read on anti-islamic websites. Try reading it for yourself and forming your own opinions.

It's requirements for charity alone far exceed what is in the Bible. I do have a friend that is Muslim, a very good friend in fact, and he doesn't believe in worldwide sharia law anymore than you believe in worldwide christian based laws.
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What factually is wrong with anything I've posted???

Does not the Qu'ran and all leading islamic scholars call for the worldwide implementation of sharia law.

Has not Obana's own appointed emmisary to the IOC called for the worldwide implemenatation of sharia law??
 
#225
#225
ridethelightening said:
It was a joke but you have to wonder
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Actually some of the Beduin claim to be descendents of Hagar and say the should be the true inheritors of God's blessing as being firstborn and truly the chosen people.






rjd970 said:
I meant it has been around for 1300 years, it was formed around 700 ad. I ask again, have you even opened the Qu'ran?


And as far as the bolded, pray tell, what parts of the Bible have changed from the days of the inquisition and witch hunts? The constant is beliefs. Beliefs don't change, society does. How many of the inquisitors do you think read the NT? I would bet almost all of them.

I can almost guarantee a civilized, modern, free, enlightened middle east won't be much different than the US is today. Change society and people overlook ignorant and stupid parts of the dominant belief system.
Click to expand...

Well you said Christianity had a 1400 year head start and let's wait another 600 years to see what islam is like.

You can't guarantee doodly squat.

What about Nigeria, Indonesia, France, German and the UK, Somalia and all the rest???

Nice thought but that isn't reality.
 
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