Freeze and Dabo negative religious recruit UT

[OGbabyaviVol]

God. So the next question would be how could a perfect God create an imperfect creation.

The creation was perfect, until that creation made the choice to become imperfect. If there is no choice, then there's no free will, just like the choice u get to make as to whether u believe in God or not. Unfortunately, whether we choose to believe or not, we all will one day answer to Him, and He will not allow for anyone saying "ignorance was bliss" and he/she didn't know any better.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

The creation was perfect, until that creation made the choice to become imperfect. If there is no choice, then there's no free will, just like the choice u get to make as to whether u believe in God or not. Unfortunately, whether we choose to believe or not, we all will one day answer to Him, and He will not allow for anyone saying "ignorance was bliss" and he/she didn't know any better.

Too bad for all those people who lived anywhere besides the Mediterranean for the first 3000 or so years of human history :/

Edit: relevant video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDtYI4TzsUY

 

[OGbabyaviVol]

Too bad for all those people who lived anywhere besides the Mediterranean for the first 3000 or so years of human history :/

Edit: relevant video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jDtYI4TzsUY

God is the ultimate judge. I believe He will have His way that He plans to judge those people. I can't think of the scripture off the top of my head and am not home to research it, but it is mentioned I believe in the New Testament about the Gentiles adhering to a lot of the laws of the Old Testament without even knowing the laws given to Israel. It was meant to be a slap in the face to the Jews, saying the Gentiles were following many of God's laws without knowing them, yet the Jews had the laws written out for them and still were not following them.

I think this gives us a pretty good idea that God has a way that He will judge those whom you are referring to.

 

[OGbabyaviVol]

This scripture is to add to my comment earlier about God's creation of man being perfect, and by making a sinful choice, man becomes imperfect:

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 18:1-3

Why is Jesus saying children can enter the kingdom of heaven? Because they are sinless...perfect. When they mature old enough and know the difference between right and wrong, and then choose wrong, sin occurs. At that point, he/she is no longer perfect. To be washed of those sins, he/she must come into contact with the blood of Jesus through hearing and believing the gospel, confessing Jesus Christ as the Son of the living God, repentance of those sins, and baptism into Jesus for remission of sins (Acts 2:37-38, Mark 16:15-16, Romans 6:1-14, Galatians 3:26-27, 1 Peter 3:21).

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

God is the ultimate judge. I believe He will have His way that He plans to judge those people. I can't think of the scripture off the top of my head and am not home to research it, but it is mentioned I believe in the New Testament about the Gentiles adhering to a lot of the laws of the Old Testament without even knowing the laws given to Israel. It was meant to be a slap in the face to the Jews, saying the Gentiles were following many of God's laws without knowing them, yet the Jews had the laws written out for them and still were not following them.

I think this gives us a pretty good idea that God has a way that He will judge those whom you are referring to.

So ignorance is an excuse. Most of the people you're referring too were probably following the no-brainer Jewish laws like no stealing, killing, etc, but there were some pretty specific laws they had too that no one besides Jews followed. Nobody was chopping off their foreskins to signify a pact with Yaweh, especially not outside the Mediterranean.

Remember, the largest percentage of the world's population for most of human history had been in East and Southeast Asia. Almost all of those people,
Along with pretty much anybody who lived on an island before the 18th-19th century and pretty much everybody in the Western Hemisphere before the 16th-17th century would have ever had a chance.


Also, it's probably unrealistic to expect people to be immediately swayed to changing their culture and religion at the behest of Europeans who showed up out of the blue and started running you off of your land.

I imagine the people who just try to be generous, caring, kindhearted, etc probably turn out alright regardless of superstition/mythology/religion.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

This scripture is to add to my comment earlier about God's creation of man being perfect, and by making a sinful choice, man becomes imperfect:

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 18:1-3

Why is Jesus saying children can enter the kingdom of heaven? Because they are sinless...perfect. When they mature old enough and know the difference between right and wrong, and then choose wrong, sin occurs. At that point, he/she is no longer perfect. To be washed of those sins, he/she must come into contact with the blood of Jesus through hearing and believing the gospel, confessing Jesus Christ as the Son of the living God, repentance of those sins, and baptism into Jesus for remission of sins (Acts 2:37-38, Mark 16:15-16, Romans 6:1-14, Galatians 3:26-27, 1 Peter 3:21).

So if you lived in Australia longer than 350 years ago and grew up past childhood, you were SOL? Doubt it.

 

[LittleCat]

So if you lived in Australia longer than 350 years ago and grew up past childhood, you were SOL? Doubt it.

There are differing views to that kind of what-if situation.

Personally I think this; with the basis that God is a fair judge (or "just judge" as the bible says). God will never judge someone unfairly. If you have person A over there in North America in 1400 who never heard the bible. Never had a chance to even know anything, then God will judge them fairly.

Also, to go back to the topic of the OT...The OT had its written laws, and I don't believe the Gentiles were under the same guidelines. The same morality and all, but not the written laws. There are signs in the bible that Gentiles had some basic knowledge of God and His workings however.

Some say that everyone has an inherent knowledge of God. I think that's hard to say. Yes, plenty of people look around and can believe that this world isn't an accident. Some don't see it and that is perfectly understandable. We're not all wired with the same thoughts. That's a bit more difficult to judge by, and we couldn't say what is fair to them.

 

[Grizzlymint]

This thread should have been shut down long ago. This is not a place to talk about yahweh. This is football and unless we put up a humanist/theological section I think it should keep to the former.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

There are differing views to that kind of what-if situation.

Personally I think this; with the basis that God is a fair judge (or "just judge" as the bible says). God will never judge someone unfairly. If you have person A over there in North America in 1400 who never heard the bible. Never had a chance to even know anything, then God will judge them fairly.

Also, to go back to the topic of the OT...The OT had its written laws, and I don't believe the Gentiles were under the same guidelines. The same morality and all, but not the written laws. There are signs in the bible that Gentiles had some basic knowledge of God and His workings however.

Some say that everyone has an inherent knowledge of God. I think that's hard to say. Yes, plenty of people look around and can believe that this world isn't an accident. Some don't see it and that is perfectly understandable. We're not all wired with the same thoughts. That's a bit more difficult to judge by, and we couldn't say what is fair to them.

So the question becomes what about people born into societies that don't teach Christianity to children. Sure, there are resources available for people now, but the fact remains that geography is the biggest deciding factor when it comes to religion. If you're born in China or Japan, the overwhelming odds are that you won't be taught Christianity and will be taught to disregard it.

Consider for a second that it was actually another religion that was correct (though you had no knowledge of this): it's unlikely that you'd change to that religion having been raised as a Christian, right? You don't have any reason to consider that another religion may be the true one. In a lot of ways your religion is predetermined by your environment.

So what about the virtuous people who follow all of the laws without ever considering becoming a Christian?

 

[JDisThereThere]

The creation was perfect, until that creation made the choice to become imperfect. If there is no choice, then there's no free will, just like the choice u get to make as to whether u believe in God or not. Unfortunately, whether we choose to believe or not, we all will one day answer to Him, and He will not allow for anyone saying "ignorance was bliss" and he/she didn't know any better.

Again, can you prove any of this?

I only ask this because you seem so sure of yourself.

 

[JDisThereThere]

The creation was perfect, until that creation made the choice to become imperfect. If there is no choice, then there's no free will, just like the choice u get to make as to whether u believe in God or not. Unfortunately, whether we choose to believe or not, we all will one day answer to Him, and He will not allow for anyone saying "ignorance was bliss" and he/she didn't know any better.

Also, are you just referring to humans when you say 'the creation', or the universe. If you're refering to the universe, then are you implying that all of the naturally terrible things in the universe would not have occured if Eve hadn't eaten the fruit?

All of this is not humans causing harm to humans, it is the universe trying to harm us of it's own accord.
- Natural disasters (hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, volcanoes, tsunamis, etc.)
- Diseases (cancer, polio, smallpox, malaria, the frigging bubonic plague, etc.)
- Non-human predators and parasites that hunt, kill and eat humans
- People born with deformities
- People being born deaf, dumb and blind
- Comets and asteroids bombarding the planet
- Ice ages and global warming,
- Cosmic radiation,
- Imploding stars,
- Matter swallowing black holes that even light can't escape from
- The entropic heat death of the universe as the absolute temperature of the universe asymptotically approachs absolute zero
- and on and on and on.
Are you saying that the all of that crap is due to one woman eating one piece of fruit from one tree a very long time ago? Doesn't that seem ridiculous and extraordinarily harsh?

I mean god didn't even give Eve a second chance nor explain the implications of disobeying his command in the first place. Do you think that if god had told Eve what the actual consequences were, and told her about how much pain and suffering she would cause in the future by eating the fruit that she would have maybe thought a little bit harder before eating it?

You do realize that you are saying the universe was perfect and then became imperfect based upon this one mistake that Eve made? Therefore, blaming every single imperfection in the universe on her (even though it would really need to be blamed on god when you think about it).

It's an insane, illogical, ludicrously harsh punishment for a meaningless, petty crime.

It's like telling a child that if they eat a cookie from this special cookie jar, I will punish every single human from now until the end of time in unimaginably horrible and painful ways. Whaaaaaaat? Makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Burger]

The creation was perfect, until that creation made the choice to become imperfect. If there is no choice, then there's no free will, just like the choice u get to make as to whether u believe in God or not. Unfortunately, whether we choose to believe or not, we all will one day answer to Him, and He will not allow for anyone saying "ignorance was bliss" and he/she didn't know any better.

The flying spaghetti monster is just as proven as God is.

 

[InVOLuntary]

The flying spaghetti monster is just as proven as God is.

Do you have to mock someone's religion? I mean it's fine if you don't believe but mocking someone about God is juvenile and rude IMO and shows a lack of class and intelligence.

 

[Burger]

Do you have to mock someone's religion? I mean it's fine if you don't believe but mocking someone about God is juvenile and rude IMO and shows a lack of class and intelligence.

It's making a point. There is as much tangible evidence for pastafarianism as there is in all other religions that have existed for thousands of years.

 

[InVOLuntary]

It's making a point. There is as much tangible evidence for pastafarianism as there is in all other religions that have existed for thousands of years.

It's all THEORY! You can't prove anything because it's all THEORY! It's no more provable than God because it's all THEORY! Theories that scientist change when their previous THEORIES fall through. You choose to believe those THEORIES instead of God and that's fine. You continue to belittle people that believe in God and that screams of insecurity and jealousy IMO. If you don't believe that's fine but please stop acting like you're smarter than everyone because you don't. Nobody's belittled you because of your beliefs or lack thereof. Show a little class if you have any.

 

[OGbabyaviVol]

It's all THEORY! You can't prove anything because it's all THEORY! It's no more provable than God because it's all THEORY! Theories that scientist change when their previous THEORIES fall through. You choose to believe those THEORIES instead of God and that's fine. You continue to belittle people that believe in God and that screams of insecurity and jealousy IMO. If you don't believe that's fine but please stop acting like you're smarter than everyone because you don't. Nobody's belittled you because of your beliefs or lack thereof. Show a little class if you have any.

:hi:

 

[Burger]

It's all THEORY! You can't prove anything because it's all THEORY! It's no more provable than God because it's all THEORY! Theories that scientist change when their previous THEORIES fall through. You choose to believe those THEORIES instead of God and that's fine. You continue to belittle people that believe in God and that screams of insecurity and jealousy IMO. If you don't believe that's fine but please stop acting like you're smarter than everyone because you don't. Nobody's belittled you because of your beliefs or lack thereof. Show a little class if you have any.

That's fair. A scientific theory and the word theory are very different. There has to be evidence for anything to be a scientific theory. Evolution is a perfect example. There is a lot of evidence supporting it, but making it a rule means the theory would have to be 100% fact.
The theory of the eye in the sky has little to no evidence of existing. I could only go with what I know. I'm actually agnostic, meaning, I don't frighin know. God could exist, but he also might not. It's like betting most of the time. We are all very confident that Tennessee will beat Alabama. The fact is that, we don't truly know if we'll beat Alabama.

Anybody who forces their beliefs on people should be belittled. Religion is man made.

 

[OGbabyaviVol]

Again, can you prove any of this?

I only ask this because you seem so sure of yourself.

I am sure of myself...I'm sure because I believe in the almighty living God and the words He wrote in this awesome book that we have called the Bible. The only proof I need is the proof He will provide when His Son returns again. It will be a great day, but I'm saddened for many souls who will not listen to the good news of Jesus Christ, and let it prick their hearts. His word has continued to stand the test of time. Scientific theories have come and gone and changed...His word remains unchanged, just as He is unchanging. He has told us what we need to do, just like He told Adam and Eve. He told them He would provide all of their needs...all they had to do was tend the beautiful garden that He provided for them...and don't eat of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Btw, God did tell them what would happen if they ate of that particular fruit:

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:15-17

I don't know how much clearer you can be. That's the power the devil has...He tricked Eve into believing that she wouldn't die, and she believe a serpent more than the all-powerful God who gave her life.

 

[InVOLuntary]

That's fair. A scientific theory and the word theory are very different. There has to be evidence for anything to be a scientific theory. Evolution is a perfect example. There is a lot of evidence supporting it, but making it a rule means the theory would have to be 100% fact.
The theory of the eye in the sky has little to no evidence of existing. I could only go with what I know. I'm actually agnostic, meaning, I don't frighin know. God could exist, but he also might not. It's like betting most of the time. We are all very confident that Tennessee will beat Alabama. The fact is that, we don't truly know if we'll beat Alabama.

Anybody who forces their beliefs on people should be belittled. Religion is man made.

What about people that try and force their belief in theories? Should those people be belittled?

 

[Vol464]

I am sure of myself...I'm sure because I believe in the almighty living God and the words He wrote in this awesome book that we have called the Bible. The only proof I need is the proof He will provide when His Son returns again. It will be a great day, but I'm saddened for many souls who will not listen to the good news of Jesus Christ, and let it prick their hearts. His word has continued to stand the test of time. Scientific theories have come and gone and changed...His word remains unchanged, just as He is unchanging. He has told us what we need to do, just like He told Adam and Eve. He told them He would provide all of their needs...all they had to do was tend the beautiful garden that He provided for them...and don't eat of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Btw, God did tell them what would happen if they ate of that particular fruit:

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:15-17

I don't know how much clearer you can be. That's the power the devil has...He tricked Eve into believing that she wouldn't die, and she believe a serpent more than the all-powerful God who gave her life.

Obviously, you have been blessed with the fruit of the spirit called patience. Keep up the good work brother.

 

[JDisThereThere]

What about people that try and force their belief in theories? Should those people be belittled?

I don't think he tried to force anything on anyone, or belittle anyone's religion. He simply made a statement, which was actually fairly accurate. The flying spaghetti monster and god have about the same amount of evidence going for them: not much, if any at all. And then you jumped all over him claiming that he was being rude because his opinion offended you. You can't say that someone shouldn't express an opinion because it hurts your feelings. Now you can refute and debate his opinion all day long, but he still has a right to express it.

 

[Vols4us]

That's fair. A scientific theory and the word theory are very different. There has to be evidence for anything to be a scientific theory. Evolution is a perfect example. There is a lot of evidence supporting it, but making it a rule means the theory would have to be 100% fact.
The theory of the eye in the sky has little to no evidence of existing. I could only go with what I know. I'm actually agnostic, meaning, I don't frighin know. God could exist, but he also might not. It's like betting most of the time. We are all very confident that Tennessee will beat Alabama. The fact is that, we don't truly know if we'll beat Alabama.

Anybody who forces their beliefs on people should be belittled. Religion is man made.

In your experience, you are not sure if there is a God. In others' experience, including mine, we know God. You and others that believe as you do do not see physical evidence from observation and other means. Those of us that know him know he transcends physicality, even while being the creator and author of everything observed. When your heart hungers for him and his truth, he knows and responds with answers. If you don't, he will not be present and he leaves you free to pursue whatever path you choose. It is your choice and narrow is the path that leads to him.

No serious historian doubts the existence of Jesus Christ. His life is recorded in Judeo Christian and secular works in addition to the Bible. He is referenced several times in the Koran. It is your choice to believe or not believe he was the Son of God and Messiah to the world. The course of history changed dramatically because of the beliefs of non-powerful common men and women that were actually with him, those that followed in each generation, and those that gave their actual lives for him. They still do all over the world. Believers desire for everybody to know and have what we have. We are not crazy fools with nothing better to do. We have found peace, joy, and true meaning in life. This belief and resulting life has nothing to do with religion, rules, earning credits for the ultimate graduation, working hard to prove ourselves, trying to justify, etc. It has to do with what Jesus wants us to do as his disciple; love God with all we are, love others as we love ourselves, and go into all the world to share this good news so that all may know that God has come to Earth in the flesh and blood of Jesus to set us free from sin and death.

You point to scientific theory being different from the word theory. I do not know what that means. But as an example I do know that science had theories about black holes colliding and the results of those actions on gravitational waves that were proven wrong very recently. A theory Einstein had 100 years ago was proven correct. The interesting part was time speeded up, slowed down, then speeded up again. Scientists did not think that was possible in their theories. So a theory is a theory and subject to changing as more factual information is known.

 

[JBondVol]

I respect each and every Christian I know and don’t make it a practice to challenge anyone’s chosen religion. However, there are a few key issues that seem to be willfully ignored by believers. These are the primary reasons I chose to forsake my Christian upbringing many moons ago. I am sincerely open to anyone’s rebuttal.

My first problem, why would anyone choose to follow a god who wants you to live a life of ignorance? From the very beginning, the serpent attempted to impart knowledge and was cursed for it. It is made clear in those passages that through knowledge man could become as powerful as the gods themselves. Throughout the OT, Jehovah’s people were kept in ignorance, while only the Priests and Prophets were privy to the gifts of God. But the ignorant masses were expected to just blindly follow the will of the Priests or face rather harsh punishment, such as being stoned to death. Throughout the middle ages ignorance reigned thanks to ruthless strategies of the church. We still refer to that period as the dark ages. In my mind, the only way someone chooses to follow ignorance is through fear. Could that be the reason for the invention of Hell and eternal punishments?

Christianity existed long before Jesus or the NT stories. There were numerous pagan Christs in antiquity, all sharing pretty much the same traits, such as: virgin birth on December 25th, travelled far and wide, had 12 disciples, known as 'the Way,' 'the Truth,' 'the Light,' 'the Life,' 'the Word,' 'the Son of God,' 'the Good Shepherd', and ‘the Lamb of God’; killed and rose again after 3 days, etc. These are historical facts, that various peoples in various times before Jesus believed in a person of these qualities. From the earliest days of the Akkadian/Babylonians and Egyptians, many of the great empires of history had a Jesus. Mithra, Attis, Dionysus to name a few, all sun-gods whose lives represented the celestial movements of the heavens. Is it not possible that Jesus plays the same role they played? In fact, the major tenets of Christian belief--the One God, the Trinity, the hierarchy of heaven, life after death, and the virgin birth--are all Egyptian in origin. How do you explain these coincidences?

If you took the Biblical stories as literal historical events, up through the dark ages, it’s easy to see one common thread. The people dispensing the “Truth” also happened to be the ones benefitting; politically and economically. OT Priests, NT Sanhedrin/Pharisees, and the AD Greco-Romans, who after hundreds of years of promoting Mithra as their Sun God, and killing Christians by the thousands, suddenly decided the Christians were right all along, and established Jesus as their Sun God. It is well known that the Romans were obsessed with Egyptian culture and political structure, and also had a little problem brewing in Judea that threatened stability in that region. And even with their eventual collapse, they were still able to maintain political control through the Vatican, thanks to their new Sun God. Hence, more than a millennium of darkness. Wouldn’t knowing these facts make any rational person a little skeptical about the legitimacy of the scriptures he’s reading? Isn’t it possible it was written as political propaganda material instead of the divinely inspired word of God?

 

[OGbabyaviVol]

Obviously, you have been blessed with the fruit of the spirit called patience. Keep up the good work brother.

I know I need a lot more of it many times in certain circumstances. Thanks for the encouragement though. :hi:

 

[Vols4us]

I respect each and every Christian I know and don’t make it a practice to challenge anyone’s chosen religion. However, there are a few key issues that seem to be willfully ignored by believers. These are the primary reasons I chose to forsake my Christian upbringing many moons ago. I am sincerely open to anyone’s rebuttal.

My first problem, why would anyone choose to follow a god who wants you to live a life of ignorance? From the very beginning, the serpent attempted to impart knowledge and was cursed for it. It is made clear in those passages that through knowledge man could become as powerful as the gods themselves. Throughout the OT, Jehovah’s people were kept in ignorance, while only the Priests and Prophets were privy to the gifts of God. But the ignorant masses were expected to just blindly follow the will of the Priests or face rather harsh punishment, such as being stoned to death. Throughout the middle ages ignorance reigned thanks to ruthless strategies of the church. We still refer to that period as the dark ages. In my mind, the only way someone chooses to follow ignorance is through fear. Could that be the reason for the invention of Hell and eternal punishments?

Christianity existed long before Jesus or the NT stories. There were numerous pagan Christs in antiquity, all sharing pretty much the same traits, such as: virgin birth on December 25th, travelled far and wide, had 12 disciples, known as 'the Way,' 'the Truth,' 'the Light,' 'the Life,' 'the Word,' 'the Son of God,' 'the Good Shepherd', and ‘the Lamb of God’; killed and rose again after 3 days, etc. These are historical facts, that various peoples in various times before Jesus believed in a person of these qualities. From the earliest days of the Akkadian/Babylonians and Egyptians, many of the great empires of history had a Jesus. Mithra, Attis, Dionysus to name a few, all sun-gods whose lives represented the celestial movements of the heavens. Is it not possible that Jesus plays the same role they played? In fact, the major tenets of Christian belief--the One God, the Trinity, the hierarchy of heaven, life after death, and the virgin birth--are all Egyptian in origin. How do you explain these coincidences?

If you took the Biblical stories as literal historical events, up through the dark ages, it’s easy to see one common thread. The people dispensing the “Truth” also happened to be the ones benefitting; politically and economically. OT Priests, NT Sanhedrin/Pharisees, and the AD Greco-Romans, who after hundreds of years of promoting Mithra as their Sun God, and killing Christians by the thousands, suddenly decided the Christians were right all along, and established Jesus as their Sun God. It is well known that the Romans were obsessed with Egyptian culture and political structure, and also had a little problem brewing in Judea that threatened stability in that region. And even with their eventual collapse, they were still able to maintain political control through the Vatican, thanks to their new Sun God. Hence, more than a millennium of darkness. Wouldn’t knowing these facts make any rational person a little skeptical about the legitimacy of the scriptures he’s reading? Isn’t it possible it was written as political propaganda material instead of the divinely inspired word of God?

Straw man argument. Assumption is not in evidence. It is your opinion.