From 90% to 29%

#2
#2
60% say the economy is worse than 5 years ago? That one surprises me. I don't remember exactly how the economy was 5 years ago, but it seems pretty good right now. Just never know how these questions are presented to people or to what type of people they are presented to.
 
#4
#4
allvol123 said:
60% say the economy is worse than 5 years ago? That one surprises me. I don't remember exactly how the economy was 5 years ago, but it seems pretty good right now. Just never know how these questions are presented to people or to what type of people they are presented to.
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I know that I never agree to participate in phone polls...
 
#6
#6
Thanks for your personal opinion. Tell that to those in the domestic auto industry who have been laid off along with many others. Just because things are rosy for you doesn't mean it is for everyone else. Obviously most Americans disagree with your assessment. Odds are they will vote based on that.
 
#7
#7
CSpindizzy said:
Thanks for your personal opinion. Tell that to those in the domestic auto industry who have been laid off along with many others. Just because things are rosy for you doesn't mean it is for everyone else. Obviously most Americans disagree with your assessment. Odds are they will vote based on that.
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You are welcome and thanks for yours as well, is there a reason for giving thanks for these? I did not know people can only get jobs in the auto industry? Imagine that, they might actually have to learn some new skills and perhaps even move, gasp! Who said things are rosy for me? You know my situation? Anyone disagreeing with my assessement is not making an honest assessment of the situation.
 
#8
#8
Tell someone who is 50 years old, worked in the same field for decades, and unemployed to try and find new skills. It's not that easy. Imagine that. Wow. I guess in your mind it's perfect where everyone just has the magic key to dodge all hardships and just make it through life without any bad times? I guess learning a new skill while unemployed can be done without money? And can somehow put food on the table and pay the bills in the meantime?
 
#9
#9
CSpindizzy said:
Tell someone who is 50 years old, worked in the same field for decades, and unemployed to try and find new skills. It's not that easy. Imagine that. Wow. I guess in your mind it's perfect where everyone just has the magic key to dodge all hardships and just make it through life without any bad times? I guess learning a new skill while unemployed can be done without money? And can somehow put food on the table and pay the bills in the meantime?
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and what's that unemployment rate? how does it compare to what economists would call fully employed?

Have those in Detroit not seen the writing on the wall or did they believe the union could save them? This has been a long time coming for the unionized auto industry and they've had plenty of examples to help them understand the changes afoot. I feel for those out of work, to some degree, but to act as if some unpredictable catastrophe has befallen them is just wrong.
 
#10
#10
CSpindizzy said:
Tell someone who is 50 years old, worked in the same field for decades, and unemployed to try and find new skills. It's not that easy. Imagine that. Wow. I guess in your mind it's perfect where everyone just has the magic key to dodge all hardships and just make it through life without any bad times? I guess learning a new skill while unemployed can be done without money? And can somehow put food on the table and pay the bills in the meantime?
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Someone that is 50 that never bothered to learn anything new and basically relied on some union to protect him is a reason for the economy to be a top complaint or to disagree with me when I say if you can't make good in this era you aren't trying? "easy", where did I ever say it was easy? I did not know it had to be easy for the economy to be ok. I guess you should not wait until you are unemplyed to learn a new skill, I guess relying on his socialist employment did not teach him this for those 20+ years. But again, not sure how this means you cannot make it in this economy? Again, reading my mind? I have had plenty of hardships like most people, I did not stop to worry about how bad the economy was.
 
#11
#11
CSpindizzy said:
Thanks for your personal opinion. Tell that to those in the domestic auto industry who have been laid off along with many others. Just because things are rosy for you doesn't mean it is for everyone else. Obviously most Americans disagree with your assessment. Odds are they will vote based on that.
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I agree somewhat with what you are saying. Whenever the Economy comes up in a poll, the answers tend to have very little to do with real numbers and more to do with feelings. That being said, wouldn't you agree though that you have to be a complete Economic invalid to say that today's economy is worse than the economy in the direct aftermath of 9/11 when the stock market plunged, the job market tightened and we were in a recession?

One thing is clear though and that is that this administration has failed miserably at selling it's agenda. It's fine to be principled, but you are actually suppoesed to try and get people on board with you when you take hard stances. W's communication skills may be cute to some people, but they are partially to blame for his complete inability to inspire the American public.

He is starting to come off as "Carter-esque" to many in the American public.
 
#12
#12
BigPapaVol said:
and what's that unemployment rate? how does it compare to what economists would call fully employed?

Have those in Detroit not seen the writing on the wall or did they believe the union could save them? This has been a long time coming for the unionized auto industry and they've had plenty of examples to help them understand the changes afoot. I feel for those out of work, to some degree, but to act as if some unpredictable catastrophe has befallen them is just wrong.
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Well considering that quite a few were not actually union members, I'd say your assumption is a little off. When factories close down there are quite a few white collar and non-union jobs tied with that. So automatically calling out unions, etc. is a little ignorant on the situation.

I used this as one example and love how the assumption is that all are union members. The writing on the wall? Maybe everyone is not quite as smart and prepared as you. Maybe not everyone has the ability and money to go to college or technical schools. Maybe not everyone has free time to drop their families' needs and prepare for every potential situation out there.

Ask the people at Enron if they saw the writing on the wall. Ask the people at many companies that face hard times if they saw it coming. Many will say no. If they stupidly had faith in people they shouldn't oh well. Let's group them all in the category of stupid maybe?
 
#13
#13
GAVol said:
I agree somewhat with what you are saying. Whenever the Economy comes up in a poll, the answers tend to have very little to do with real numbers and more to do with feelings. That being said, wouldn't you agree though that you have to be a complete Economic invalid to say that today's economy is worse than the economy in the direct aftermath of 9/11 when the stock market plunged, the job market tightened and we were in a recession?

One thing is clear though and that is that this administration has failed miserably at selling it's agenda. It's fine to be principled, but you are actually suppoesed to try and get people on board with you when you take hard stances. W's communication skills may be cute to some people, but they are partially to blame for his complete inability to inspire the American public.

He is starting to come off as "Carter-esque" to many in the American public.
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I'm actually surprised in this downturn. Perhaps Rove is asleep at the wheel? The whole immigration deal and the WH's response mystifies me. From the beginning, this was botched by the WH. He and the staff failed to sell this. The magic of Rove flopped and now Bush is lame duck king. The only thing left for him is Iraq and September will be the benchmark for that. He has no credibility left...no political capital to cash in and achieve anything noteworthy. As an old traffic guy in ATL used to say "stick a fork in him. He's done."
 
#14
#14
CSpindizzy said:
Well considering that quite a few were not actually union members, I'd say your assumption is a little off. When factories close down there are quite a few white collar and non-union jobs tied with that. So automatically calling out unions, etc. is a little ignorant on the situation.

I used this as one example and love how the assumption is that all are union members. The writing on the wall? Maybe everyone is not quite as smart and prepared as you. Maybe not everyone has the ability and money to go to college or technical schools. Maybe not everyone has free time to drop their families' needs and prepare for every potential situation out there.

Ask the people at Enron if they saw the writing on the wall. Ask the people at many companies that face hard times if they saw it coming. Many will say no. If they stupidly had faith in people they shouldn't oh well. Let's group them all in the category of stupid maybe?
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The typical cspin drivel. Unionized or not, hard to feel sorry for people who should have seen this coming. The big mean cruel capitalist world has never proven very tolerant of ostriches.

How am I ignorant? I blamed the decline in the auto industry on the unions and I still believe that. I never intimated that all those suffering job losses were union. Please get a grasp of your argument. My assumptions / truths regarding the problem were still right on the money. Those unprepared for the reality that job security is a sham, will get no sympathy from me.

To your second silly point about people not having the time / ability to build a new life. I would think one should spend all the time it takes when we're talking about livelihood. One doesn't have to be bright, but being prepared for the less than ideal eventuality is a requisite. Being an apologist for those unprepared is just absurd.

You're welcome to keep using isolated incidents like Enron to try and somehow draw a conclusion about the overall economy, but it won't help your argument that the economy is struggling. Amidst the best of historical economies, there have always been companies and industries that have died proper deaths. Such is the life cycle within the larger economy. To talk about inidviduals out of work relative to the entire economy shows a complete lack of macroeconomic understanding, which is probably appropriate.
 
#15
#15
BigPapaVol said:
The typical cspin drivel. Unionized or not, hard to feel sorry for people who should have seen this coming. The big mean cruel capitalist world has never proven very tolerant of ostriches.

How am I ignorant? I blamed the decline in the auto industry on the unions and I still believe that. I never intimated that all those suffering job losses were union. Please get a grasp of your argument. My assumptions / truths regarding the problem were still right on the money. Those unprepared for the reality that job security is a sham, will get no sympathy from me.

To your second silly point about people not having the time / ability to build a new life. I would think one should spend all the time it takes when we're talking about livelihood. One doesn't have to be bright, but being prepared for the less than ideal eventuality is a requisite. Being an apologist for those unprepared is just absurd.

You're welcome to keep using isolated incidents like Enron to try and somehow draw a conclusion about the overall economy, but it won't help your argument that the economy is struggling. Amidst the best of historical economies, there have always been companies and industries that have died proper deaths. Such is the life cycle within the larger economy. To talk about inidviduals out of work relative to the entire economy shows a complete lack of macroeconomic understanding, which is probably appropriate.
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Typical CSpin reality. And your response is typical...not read the post, assume something that isn't there, and comment on that assumption. I never said the economy was good or bad. I said not all people think it is as rosy as you. Call me an apologist or whatever. I'm just telling you how the real world works. And because of that people respond to polls that way. It's amazing how an analysis of polling is taken for my personal viewpoints and somehow telling me I said something I never did.

To somehow assume I was referring individuals out of work to the overall economy shows a lack of comprehension of my post which is expected. Feel free to go back and look at the poll, comments on the economy, why people respond that way, etc. I guess 60% of the people in this nation are just not as perceptive as you. Stupid Americans.

:crazy:
 
#16
#16
I think we all agree that it's dumb to think that the economy is worse off than it as 5 years ago . . . but the fact is that this poll says that people THINK the economy is worse off, so obviously there is some underlying reason to give them a false perception. You can either chalk it up to everybody being stupid or you can try to figure out where the perception problem lies and do something about it. The fact is that no matter how dumb somebody is, their vote counts as much as yours.
 
#17
#17
Looking at these numbers, it's higher probability Hillary will be running the show...or at least another Dem.
 
#18
#18
CSpindizzy said:
Typical CSpin reality. And your response is typical...not read the post, assume something that isn't there, and comment on that assumption. I never said the economy was good or bad. I said not all people think it is as rosy as you. Call me an apologist or whatever. I'm just telling you how the real world works. And because of that people respond to polls that way. It's amazing how an analysis of polling is taken for my personal viewpoints and somehow telling me I said something I never did.

To somehow assume I was referring individuals out of work to the overall economy shows a lack of comprehension of my post which is expected. Feel free to go back and look at the poll, comments on the economy, why people respond that way, etc. I guess 60% of the people in this nation are just not as perceptive as you. Stupid Americans.

:crazy:
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assuming that the consumer confidence poll (conducted at Michigan around the corner from Detroit) is representative of the opinion of the nation as a whole is just silly.

Using those out of work as the group around which to form any opinions is just asinine.

Playing semantics games about your views is just a waste of time. If your posting things that aren't representative of your opinions, state so. Otherwise I'm going to assume that you espouse the garbage you write.

Finally, using isolated cases and out of work people to talk about the overall economy or the consumer confidence poll is just plain uneducated.
 
#19
#19
CSpindizzy said:
Looking at these numbers, it's higher probability Hillary will be running the show...or at least another Dem.
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I'm still not so sure about that. If Gore couldn't pull it off in 2000 and Kerry couldn't do it in 2004 in remarkably favorable conditions, I'm not sold on Hillary being able to overcome 45-50% of the country hating her guts.
 
#20
#20
GAVol said:
I think we all agree that it's dumb to think that the economy is worse off than it as 5 years ago . . . but the fact is that this poll says that people THINK the economy is worse off, so obviously there is some underlying reason to give them a false perception. You can either chalk it up to everybody being stupid or you can try to figure out where the perception problem lies and do something about it. The fact is that no matter how dumb somebody is, their vote counts as much as yours.
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consumer confidence is widely disregarded as an economic tool today. more relevant is consumer spending. took a while to figure out that consumer confidence (a theoretically leading indicator) and actual consumer spending that follows do not correlate the way they should. Hence consumer confidence is a pathetic indicator of real national consumer sentiment and is now widely disregarded as a useful economic tool. The problem is that the cc polling is far too media info driven and too often reflects the prevailing sentiment in the large media sources.
 
#21
#21
BigPapaVol said:
assuming that the consumer confidence poll (conducted at Michigan around the corner from Detroit) is representative of the opinion of the nation as a whole is just silly.

Using those out of work as the group around which to form any opinions is just asinine.

Playing semantics games about your views is just a waste of time. If your posting things that aren't representative of your opinions, state so. Otherwise I'm going to assume that you espouse the garbage you write.

Finally, using isolated cases and out of work people to talk about the overall economy or the consumer confidence poll is just plain uneducated.
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I don't think the consumer confidence polls are taken in the metro Detroit area. Do some more research on that. Assuming THAT is silly.

Assuming they are my personal opinions rather than actual analysis about the poll and conversation about that poll is even more asinine.

Not reading a post but commenting about things not there, uneducated and priceless.

Next time just ask. Better than taking things out of context, inventing statements, and arguing about things never mentioned. Obviously you fail to grasp the overall numbers of multiple polls out there. It may be hard for you to believe but endless polls taken by numerous companies across the nation and across demographics all point to the same thing. People don't think things are rosy. Cost of goods are high. Gas is expensive. Major companies are having major layoff issues. You may not understand this concept but people are more inclined based on their wallet than anything else. If they suffer hard times or know someone who is, they have a preception of a down economy. I guarantee if a poll was taken in my subdivision alone, the negative numbers would be higher. A few businesses near here have closed or relocated. Mortgage woes with ARM's have caused about a third of the houses here to be foreclosed on. Yes, people may have made stupid choices OR fate just picked a random group for hard times. Regardless, the perception of those here would be negative.

A Levi's factory closed in Blue Ridge, GA not long ago. It was by far the largest employer in a multi county area. Many were without a job. Many of those did not have a high school education much less a college education. Blame each of them for all I care. But they will vote based on their personal situation.
 
#22
#22
BigPapaVol said:
consumer confidence is widely disregarded as an economic tool today. more relevant is consumer spending. took a while to figure out that consumer confidence (a theoretically leading indicator) and actual consumer spending that follows do not correlate the way they should. Hence consumer confidence is a pathetic indicator of real national consumer sentiment and is now widely disregarded as a useful economic tool. The problem is that the cc polling is far too media info driven and too often reflects the prevailing sentiment in the large media sources.
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So you are saying the poor slobs that answer the CC poll by saying the economy is poor, then proceed to their nearest Best Buy and buy a 52" HDTV? That would be my take.
 
#23
#23
GAVol said:
I'm still not so sure about that. If Gore couldn't pull it off in 2000 and Kerry couldn't do it in 2004 in remarkably favorable conditions, I'm not sold on Hillary being able to overcome 45-50% of the country hating her guts.
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Conditions between 2004 and now are much different. Even many within the GOP have defected on the Iraq war which along with the whole WOT was their crown jewel. It will all depend on that 45-50% showing up. Right now there is no inspiring candidate to rally the masses. Fred is the closest now but soon he will go the way of Rudy. The GOP needs to have a reason to show up. Hillary alone may not do it.
 
#25
#25
Both consumer confidence and consumer spending are driven by household polls. If we prefer consumer spending let's look at the numbers. It appears spending for housing and food is higher which is expected but spending for 'luxury' type items is much lower. So less clothes, gadgets, additional education, etc. spending going on. Looks to me as if that says little extra money laying around the house and it goes straight to necessities. Either one comes to the same conclusion.
 
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