Fulmer debate extravaganza (merged)

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#451
#451
utmba93 said:
We've talked about this. I'm comparing outcomes (results), not expectations. You guys can expect as little as you want from UT bball.
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yes we have, but when you drag BPV in to this whole "blind loyalty/fulmer bashing" thing, you are inadvertently bringing in BPV's expectation level for the two programs, which are obviously much different if both results are as similar as you keep proclaiming.

why are you so intent on this whole topic? expectation levels do dictate reaction to results. simply saying they are equal, while literally speaking that may be true, intrinsically to the fan, they are quite different. what's so wrong with that?
 
#453
#453
jakez4ut said:
i thought you said you understood abou the NCAA sanctions at Miami?

he did literally re build that program after those sanctions. and i know Larry coached 'em to the NT in 01, but let's not mince words....that was the team BD built.....from scratch.:thumbsup:
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I do recognize the limitations the NCAA imposed. But at the same time I realize that only marginally leveled the field across the conference. They were in a conference with a program that didn't even field a D-1 football team at the time for crying out loud.
 
#454
#454
Whether it has been 10 yrs or 50, what really rankles me is that all of these teams have won a SEC title since we last won one:

1999 Alabama
2000 Florida
2001 Louisiana St.
2002 Georgia
2003 Louisiana St.
2004 Auburn
2005 Georgia
2006 Florida
2007 LSU

Some of them more than once and a few at our expense. :realmad:
 
#455
#455
jakez4ut said:
yes we have, but when you drag BPV in to this whole "blind loyalty/fulmer bashing" thing, you are inadvertently bringing in BPV's expectation level for the two programs, which are obviously much different if both results are as similar as you keep proclaiming.

why are you so intent on this whole topic? expectation levels do dictate reaction to results. simply saying they are equal, while literally speaking that may be true, intrinsically to the fan, they are quite different. what's so wrong with that?
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I'm not bringing in BPV's expectations, he is (and you are). I'm trying to help separate imagination and conjecture from reality.

In doing so, I've said expectations and results are not the same. Fans can expect whatever they want, but those expectations do not necessarily produce results.

Reality: The results produced from the two seasons were approximate.

Saying that, being explicit, should help put perspective on just how much better UT did in football, from a results standpoint, than some want to acknowledge. The percieved difference in outcomes is mostly subjective, emotive, and irrational. For BPV, the conflict between real and imaginery keeps manifesting itself as blind homerism in basketball and blind bashing in football.

Just saying... again. Note: BPV brought this back up again this morning in response to a post that had nothing to do with the issue. It was not me. I'm just volunteering my time to help him with his problem.:peace2:
 
#456
#456
UT IE 95 said:
I do recognize the limitations the NCAA imposed. But at the same time I realize that only marginally leveled the field across the conference. They were in a conference with a program that didn't even field a D-1 football team at the time for crying out loud.
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putting it very mildly. and i don't recall bringing the relative strength of the big east in to the conversation, but VT also as pretty good during that time and played for a NT during that time period, and SU was nationally relavent at the time as well.

here's the biggest reason that i think he's relevant as a HC: He built a team that even Larry Coker to coach to a national title and play for another.

we see how well LC fared after the group BD brought in departed coral gables.:thumbsup:
 
#457
#457
UT IE 95 said:
I do recognize the limitations the NCAA imposed. But at the same time I realize that only marginally leveled the field across the conference. They were in a conference with a program that didn't even field a D-1 football team at the time for crying out loud.
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you should consider joining the Flat Earth Society.
 
#459
#459
utmba93 said:
I'm not bringing in BPV's expectations, he is (and you are). I'm trying to help separate imagination and conjecture from reality.

In doing so, I've said expectations and results are not the same. Fans can expect whatever they want, but those expectations do not necessarily produce results.

Reality: The results produced from the two seasons were approximate.

Saying that, being explicit, should help put perspective on just how much better UT did in football, from a results standpoint, than some want to acknowledge. The percieved difference in outcomes is mostly subjective, emotive, and irrational. For BPV, the conflict between real and imaginery keeps manifesting itself as blind homerism in basketball and blind bashing in football.

Just saying... again. Note: BPV brought this back up again this morning in response to a post that had nothing to do with the issue. It was not me. I'm just volunteering my time to help him with his problem.:peace2:
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none of that changes the fact that despite the results being similar, expectations determine the level of satisfaction with the results. which is why i can be elated with the basketball team's performance, and disappointed in how the football team performed.

i would suspect the same to be true of BPV based on his posts on the matter.

your posts are basically just saying "it is what it is, and nothing more".

Imagine a KC Royal fan and NY Yankee fan. both teams win their division. They both get beat in the WC round of the playoffs.

the Yankee fan is more than likely pissed off. the Royal fan is likely elated they saw the post season. Yet the two results are equal.:thumbsup:
 
#460
#460
I've accepted the fact that Fulmer is going to be here for the next 4 years until he breaks Neyland's record for most wins by a Head Coach at Tennessee. Barring some meltdown, Hamilton will not make a move.

So I'm expecting 9-4, 8-5, 7-6 type seasons for the next four years until Fulmer has the record and retires. To me that is the reality, barring some meltdown where UT ends up going 4-7, etc. Considering 2 of the last 3 recruiting classses its not outside the realm of possibilility.
 
#463
#463
UT IE 95 said:
Look up Butch Davis' coaching record and come back and tell me how great he is.
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so you just want to completely disregard the fact that he's had some tough first years as he rebuilds a couple of beat down programs?
 
#464
#464
jakez4ut said:
putting it very mildly. and i don't recall bringing the relative strength of the big east in to the conversation, but VT also as pretty good during that time and played for a NT during that time period, and SU was nationally relavent at the time as well.
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Compared to UT playing in a league with the last two actual National Champs?
 
#466
#466
rexvol said:
so you just want to completely disregard the fact that he's had some tough first years as he rebuilds a couple of beat down programs?
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Fulmer supporters do not acknowledge program building as a talent. Stabbing your predecessor in the back to take over his talent laden squad however...
 
#467
#467
jakez4ut said:
none of that changes the fact that despite the results being similar, expectations determine the level of satisfaction with the results. which is why i can be elated with the basketball team's performance, and disappointed in how the football team performed.

i would suspect the same to be true of BPV based on his posts on the matter.

your posts are basically just saying "it is what it is, and nothing more".

Imagine a KC Royal fan and NY Yankee fan. both teams win their division. They both get beat in the WC round of the playoffs.

the Yankee fan is more than likely pissed off. the Royal fan is likely elated they saw the post season. Yet the two results are equal.:thumbsup:
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Agree. We established that satisfaction is a function of expectations and performance yesterday.

And, you are correct, I am saying 'it is what it is'--plus... what it is, is about the same for both sports. Nothing more, nothing less.

Part of our issue as a fanbase, using your analogy, I might add is that we've NEVER been the NY Yankees of football, yet some act like we are, were, or could be ('with the right coach'). It is, what it is.
 
#469
#469
rexvol said:
so you just want to completely disregard the fact that he's had some tough first years as he rebuilds a couple of beat down programs?
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No. That's fine. But what is tangible on his resume to say him replacing Fulmer would be a step up? We don't need a "builder". We need a coach that can get over the hump - something Davis has no previous experience in doing.

That's all. I'm not trashing Davis. I don't entertain the idea that he would be an upgrade from our current coach.
 
#471
#471
UT IE 95 said:
No. That's fine. But what is tangible on his resume to say him replacing Fulmer would be a step up? We don't need a "builder". We need a coach that can get over the hump - something Davis has no previous experience in doing.

That's all. I'm not trashing Davis. I don't entertain the idea that he would be an upgrade from our current coach.
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look, Phil took over a team that was trending upward and he won. Now our program is eroding and by the time MH actually pulls the trigger, we'll need a "builder".
 
#473
#473
jakez4ut said:
putting it very mildly. and i don't recall bringing the relative strength of the big east in to the conversation, but VT also as pretty good during that time and played for a NT during that time period, and SU was nationally relavent at the time as well.

here's the biggest reason that i think he's relevant as a HC: He built a team that even Larry Coker to coach to a national title and play for another.

we see how well LC fared after the group BD brought in departed coral gables.:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

For some reason that old SNL camera commercial w/ Stevie Wonder came to mind here.

2001 Miami Hurricanes = "...a team so advanced even Larry Coker can use it..."

:p
 
#475
#475
rexvol said:
look, Phil took over a team that was trending upward and he won. Now our program is eroding and by the time MH actually pulls the trigger, we'll need a "builder".
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News Flash. Eroding programs don't represent their conference division in the SEC Title game.
 
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