Fulmer debate extravaganza (merged)

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#1,201
#1,201
lawgator1 said:
I can buy into the notion of some complacency for the coaching staff or the fans or even the returning players for perhaps a year or two, but even then I think that its no excuse. It may explain a regression, but it does not justify it (as would, say losing key members of the team to graduation and/or the NFL).

But even to the extent it explains a fall off for, say, two years, you have the next seven to account for. IMO, as an outside observer, the problems have been lack of innovation and keeping up with the Joneses in strategy and play-calling and, again relative to the Joneses, a drop off in talent.

The two feed off one another. When you don't have the speed and athleticism others have, you end up with a more conservative offense. And, the more conservative your offense appears to be, the less the highly-sought skill players are willing to come there.

Somehow, you have to break this cycle of modest players in a modest scheme. To me, the best argument against CPF is that he is absolutely not the guy to do that.
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BTW, this snowball effect is why I hope Tebow keeps running the ball.
 
#1,202
#1,202
u_fulmer_275.jpg
 
#1,203
#1,203
blamie said:
I know you're completely smitten with your teams talent level but if UT has dropped off in that regard then how do you explain the top 5 recruiting classes (in the stated time frame...obviously not last year) and the fact that we continue to put anywhere from 2-6 players in the NFL on the first day of the draft every year....

You really need to quit putting all of your eggs in the 59-20 basket...if you haven't noticed there was an entire season after that where we managed to (among other things) hang with the eventual national champion and win 10 games...

I really don't believe talent has much of anything to do with our drop off...if anything our sustained level of talent adds fuel to the fire when it comes to attacking Fulmer
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Well, let's make sure we are comparing apples and apples. The overall recruit rating is not the issue that I'm talking about. I'm strictly talking 5 star QBs, WRs, and RBs. Now, I will grant you that you need just as high a level on your offensive and defensive lines to compete. That is absolutely true.

But what I was getting at is that in the skill positions on offense it has been a little while it seems to me since UT had anything near the level of a Harvin or a Moreno. I know some folks are excited about the new crop of WRs, but look at who you have throwing to them and, more importantly, look at the head coach and his apparent resistance to opening things up. Might the new OC change that? Sure. I'm just saying that in the last few years UTs offense has been as exciting to watch as dried paint drying some more.

I'm not relying on 59-20 as a score. I'm relying on what I saw, which was a talent mismatch of fairly large and obvious proportion. And I do concede that UT got better as the season wore on, though I maintain that was a function less of becoming talented and more one of coming up with a game plan to suit your strengths.
 
#1,204
#1,204
lawgator1 said:
Well, let's make sure we are comparing apples and apples. The overall recruit rating is not the issue that I'm talking about. I'm strictly talking 5 star QBs, WRs, and RBs. Now, I will grant you that you need just as high a level on your offensive and defensive lines to compete. That is absolutely true.

But what I was getting at is that in the skill positions on offense it has been a little while it seems to me since UT had anything near the level of a Harvin or a Moreno. I know some folks are excited about the new crop of WRs, but look at who you have throwing to them and, more importantly, look at the head coach and his apparent resistance to opening things up. Might the new OC change that? Sure. I'm just saying that in the last few years UTs offense has been as exciting to watch as dried paint drying some more.

I'm not relying on 59-20 as a score. I'm relying on what I saw, which was a talent mismatch of fairly large and obvious proportion. And I do concede that UT got better as the season wore on, though I maintain that was a function less of becoming talented and more one of coming up with a game plan to suit your strengths.
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I hate it when I agree with you!
 
#1,207
#1,207
lawgator1 said:
Well, let's make sure we are comparing apples and apples. The overall recruit rating is not the issue that I'm talking about. I'm strictly talking 5 star QBs, WRs, and RBs. Now, I will grant you that you need just as high a level on your offensive and defensive lines to compete. That is absolutely true.

But what I was getting at is that in the skill positions on offense it has been a little while it seems to me since UT had anything near the level of a Harvin or a Moreno. I know some folks are excited about the new crop of WRs, but look at who you have throwing to them and, more importantly, look at the head coach and his apparent resistance to opening things up. Might the new OC change that? Sure. I'm just saying that in the last few years UTs offense has been as exciting to watch as dried paint drying some more.

I'm not relying on 59-20 as a score. I'm relying on what I saw, which was a talent mismatch of fairly large and obvious proportion. And I do concede that UT got better as the season wore on, though I maintain that was a function less of becoming talented and more one of coming up with a game plan to suit your strengths.
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I would answer by saying we had a guy like that season before last in Meachem...there are several others I could name but I'm not trying to get in that kind of contest

The point I would like to make is that I believe...and I think the recruiting classes and draft picks would back it up.... that the talent is there...The problem is player development (which you obviously agree with to some extent) and the fact that our rivals have narrowed and in some cases exceeded the talent gap...

Finally, that's what you saw because you are biased to your team...as am I...

You saw an extreme talent disparity...I saw a better prepared, much better coached team in a game that was realtively close (28-20 3rd quarter) until one team gave up...It's easy to think your players are leaps and bounds more talented when they're playing full speed and our guys are going through the motions...It was pathetic but pathetic because we quit

Now...I do believe that UF has a greater quantity of talented players...but I don't believe that your starting 22 is leaps and bounds better than ours...maybe I'm wrong

But most of all...as I have said repeatedly...the talent is still there to compete with everyone including UF...and this is something that adds fuel to the fire about Fulmer
 
#1,210
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blamie said:
Now...I do believe that UF has a greater quantity of talented players...but I don't believe that your starting 22 is leaps and bounds better than ours...maybe I'm wrong

But most of all...as I have said repeatedly...the talent is still there to compete with everyone including UF...and this is something that adds fuel to the fire about Fulmer
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you're not. we're superior in the secondary, they're superior at QB and at WR (harvin). everywhere else, it's comparable. both have some folks that need to step up.
 
#1,212
#1,212
blamie said:
I would answer by saying we had a guy like that season before last in Meachem...there are several others I could name but I'm not trying to get in that kind of contest

The point I would like to make is that I believe...and I think the recruiting classes and draft picks would back it up.... that the talent is there...The problem is player development (which you obviously agree with to some extent) and the fact that our rivals have narrowed and in some cases exceeded the talent gap...

Finally, that's what you saw because you are biased to your team...as am I...

You saw an extreme talent disparity...I saw a better prepared, much better coached team in a game that was realtively close (28-20 3rd quarter) until one team gave up...It's easy to think your players are leaps and bounds more talented when they're playing full speed and our guys are going through the motions...It was pathetic but pathetic because we quit

Now...I do believe that UF has a greater quantity of talented players...but I don't believe that your starting 22 is leaps and bounds better than ours...maybe I'm wrong

But most of all...as I have said repeatedly...the talent is still there to compete with everyone including UF...and this is something that adds fuel to the fire about Fulmer
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The irony is that if the talent is not there its his fault for not recruiting it, while if the talent is there its his fault for not developing it.
 
#1,213
#1,213
blamie said:
But most of all...as I have said repeatedly...the talent is still there to compete with everyone including UF...and this is something that adds fuel to the fire about Fulmer
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UT does have talent and most recognize that.

For example, from an anonymous source who participated in Gator football camp last summer (I don't divulge often), UT and LSU were consistently considered the most talented teams the Gators play.

And that reality is part of what fuels the fire about Fulmer.

But as Vols fans, we can hope the Gators arrive in Knoxville this fall fully expecting to play a grossly-undertalented squad.
 
#1,216
#1,216
lawgator1 said:
The irony is that if the talent is not there its his fault for not recruiting it, while if the talent is there its his fault for not developing it.
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lately, it's been both. we had the great class two years ago that should reap some benefits this year, but the class before, and this last class weren't great (on paper, and i'm not a faithfull follower of the 'stars'...so don't get me wrong).

over a longer timeline, development has been the bigger issue.
 
#1,219
#1,219
jakez4ut said:
you're not. we're superior in the secondary, they're superior at QB and at WR (harvin). everywhere else, it's comparable. both have some folks that need to step up.
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Exactly Jake...some people (law, the media, etc.) want to act like two guys make an entire team...

I would concede that Tebow and Stafford are more talented and better prepared for this season than Crompton...I would concede that Moreno is more dynamic than Foster...I would concede that Harvin is the most exlposive player (when healthy) in college football (arguably)...

But I will not concede that UGA or UF are leaps and bounds more talented than us when you compare their entire team to ours...

We still have more than enough to compete...will we do anything with what we have and if not who's fault is it (Fulmer) are the questions
 
#1,221
#1,221
blamie said:
I would concede that Tebow and Stafford are more talented and better prepared for this season than Crompton.
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Tebow yes, but Stafford? Nothing about Stafford shows me that he is more talented than JC. More experienced sure, but talented?
 
#1,222
#1,222
blamie said:
Exactly Jake...some people (law, the media, etc.) want to act like two guys make an entire team...

I would concede that Tebow and Stafford are more talented and better prepared for this season than Crompton...I would concede that Moreno is more dynamic than Foster...I would concede that Harvin is the most exlposive player (when healthy) in college football (arguably)...

But I will not concede that UGA or UF are leaps and bounds more talented than us when you compare their entire team to ours...

We still have more than enough to compete...will we do anything with what we have and if not who's fault is it (Fulmer) are the questions
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to be fair, tebow and harvin alone are enough to think they'll win some games. we don't have anyone on our roster right now that has done as much as either of them have to create the buzz they warrant going in.

now, the good news, we have people on roster right now that can do that. but of yet, they haven't.

what i mean by that, Eric Berry......have the 96 yard pick 6 in a game that we win. G. Jones, have the great one handed catch to win the game......against Georgia. Rogan...have the PR for a TD against Auburn. JC....throw for 3 TD's against Bama.

do it in games that matter, and make those plays count towards a win.

it's there. we just have go do it. until we do, doubt is warranted. simple as that. :thumbsup:
 
#1,223
#1,223
TreeGreen said:
Tebow yes, but Stafford? Nothing about Stafford shows me that he is more talented than JC. More experienced sure, but talented?
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You caught me buying into the hype...:)

Stafford has the cannon arm...Crompton has the mobility (it would seem)....experience would seem to be the biggest factor in this matchup
 
#1,224
#1,224
jakez4ut said:
it's there. we just have go do it. until we do, doubt is warranted. simple as that. :thumbsup:
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With the exception of Berry, this is the first season a lot of these guys will have a shot to do it in every game. I can assure you that Tebow, Harvin, and the rest of UF will know where Eric Berry is at all times so he doesn't flip the game on them. At the point he made that pick six we still had a chance, and that put us back in the game. The difference was that the rest of the team couldn't get behind the big play and rally to victory.
 
#1,225
#1,225
blamie said:
You caught me buying into the hype...:)

Stafford has the cannon arm...Crompton has the mobility (it would seem)....experience would seem to be the biggest factor in this matchup
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If you can, imagine how easy it must be for the UGA players. Man, if only those guys can prove again what our '05 team showed, it would be awesome.

Bascially, we need Stafford to do the Dawgs what Ainge did to us in 2005.
 
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