Fulmer debate extravaganza (merged)

[utmba93]

i probably do a little dance.......

make a little love...

 

[thunder5]

There would be no debate.

Yeah...I really think thats what it comes down to...

Because...when you think about it...what is one of the biggest rewards of claiming fanship of a certain team...bragging rights...

And there isn't a place on earth where college football bragging rights is more deep seeded than in the south...

There are very few things more important to me than being able to brag to a UGA or UF fan about 1.) A beat down we put on them and 2.) How many championships we have/ we have the most recent championship...etc.

I believe that's what the debate stems from...we don't have those bragging rights..or at least we've had very few opportunities at them for a long time now...and Fulmer is (or at least he is perceived to be ) the cause of that

 

[hatvol96]

For example, IF the Vols do figure out a way to win it this year, what happens?

Tennessee plays in BCS bowl and complaints about the coaching staff disappear. It's really simple.

 

[orange+white=heaven]

Since we'll never get a do-over on those SEC CG's, what would it take for the debate to subside?

For example, IF the Vols do figure out a way to win it this year, what happens?

Please ignore the big 'IF' just for argument's sake.

As BPV put it, 'then the argument gets the knees cut out from under it.'...


Except that there are many for whom all confidence is lost in Phillip. For them, nothing short of seeing his house on the market will ever suffice.

 

[utmba93]

As BPV put it, 'then the argument gets the knees cut out from under it.'...


Except that there are many for whom all confidence is lost in Phillip. For them, nothing short of seeing his house on the market will ever suffice.

That's what I'm wondering about. How many?

 

[jakez4ut]

As BPV put it, 'then the argument gets the knees cut out from under it.'...


Except that there are many for whom all confidence is lost in Phillip. For them, nothing short of seeing his house on the market will ever suffice.

which is why i think you, and me truth be known, need to see this team beat FL. soon.

and then go on to win the title.

 

[jakez4ut]

That's what I'm wondering about. How many?

let me find my roster.......hold on a minute.........:whistling:

 

[utmba93]

which is why i think you, and me truth be known, need to see this team beat FL. soon.

and then go on to win the title.

There's a huge 'many' in that group. I'm likely there.

 

[justingroves]

There would be no debate.

Exactly.

 

[hatvol96]

As BPV put it, 'then the argument gets the knees cut out from under it.'...


Except that there are many for whom all confidence is lost in Phillip. For them, nothing short of seeing his house on the market will ever suffice.

I think the number of fans whose confidence is so broken that an SEC title wouldn't bring them back around is very, very minute.

 

[utmba93]

Tennessee plays in BCS bowl and complaints about the coaching staff disappear. It's really simple.

What if they backdoor into the BCS like UGA did last year? That would probably mean lose to UF, then win out.

That doesn't solve much nearly as much, right?

 

[orange+white=heaven]

That's what I'm wondering about. How many?

If you use VolNation members who post with any regularity as a guide... maybe 15 to 20%.

That's skewed though. VNers are not your average fan.

 

[justingroves]

I think the number of fans whose confidence is so broken that an SEC title wouldn't bring them back around is very, very minute.

I agree.

I personally don't have a problem with CPF.

There is no reason Richt should have embarrassed him like he did.

The SEC was there for the taking and he squandered it.

However, win 1 SECCG every oh 4-6 years and everyone is happy.

 

[jakez4ut]

if tn has a season worthy of making a bcs bowl, then chances are they are at a level of realistically competing for an SEC title and ranked inside the top 6 nationally.

it will be difficult for anyone to want him to be gone direclty after such a season.

in short, a BCS at large bid would be considered improvement over the past two seasons.

 

[hatvol96]

What if they backdoor into the BCS like UGA did last year? That would probably mean lose to UF, then win out.

That doesn't solve much nearly as much, right?

If Tennessee only loses one game in '08, I can't imagine any rational complaints.

 

[orange+white=heaven]

I think the number of fans whose confidence is so broken that an SEC title wouldn't bring them back around is very, very minute.

I don't write it much. It brings a lot of heat. But I'd be among that very minute few.

 

[hatvol96]

I don't write it much. It brings a lot of heat. But I'd be among that very minute few.

Nothing wrong with that. You've got nine seasons worth of evidence to support that position.

 

[jakez4ut]

Nothing wrong with that. You've got nine seasons worth of evidence to support that position.

and two scores: 59-20 and 41-17.

 

[utmba93]

I don't write it much. It brings a lot of heat. But I'd be among that very minute few.

Having argued the opposite side for a while here, I don't think you're alone.

Justin's and Hat's responses are encouraging.

 

[KB5252]

and two scores: 59-20 and 41-17.

Can you say roll over and play dead? No answer and no motivation= serious problems. It's one thing to lose another to be crushed.

 

[utmba93]

The struggle to get to and win the 1998 championship was so long, I really soaked it in.

I think a lot of Vols fans, staff, and players did. That's why I thought the earlier post about UT getting complacent after that was interesting.

But, in my memory, that 2001 team had what it took to win championships, and LSU got freakin' lucky on us. I never thought about losing that game until we actually did.

After that, how could the Vols have been resting on our laurels?

That game hurt our program and its confidence. We need to get our swagger back on the Hill--and that starts with owning Neyland again. Last year was a step in the right direction in that regard.

 

[lawgator1]

The struggle to get to and win the 1998 championship was so long, I really soaked it in.

I think a lot of Vols fans, staff, and players did. That's why I thought the earlier post about UT getting complacent after that was interesting.

But, in my memory, that 2001 team had what it took to win championships, and LSU got freakin' lucky on us. I never thought about losing that game until we actually did.

After that, how could the Vols have been resting on our laurels?

That game hurt our program and its confidence. We need to get our swagger back on the Hill--and that starts with owning Neyland again. Last year was a step in the right direction in that regard.

I can buy into the notion of some complacency for the coaching staff or the fans or even the returning players for perhaps a year or two, but even then I think that its no excuse. It may explain a regression, but it does not justify it (as would, say losing key members of the team to graduation and/or the NFL).

But even to the extent it explains a fall off for, say, two years, you have the next seven to account for. IMO, as an outside observer, the problems have been lack of innovation and keeping up with the Joneses in strategy and play-calling and, again relative to the Joneses, a drop off in talent.

The two feed off one another. When you don't have the speed and athleticism others have, you end up with a more conservative offense. And, the more conservative your offense appears to be, the less the highly-sought skill players are willing to come there.

Somehow, you have to break this cycle of modest players in a modest scheme. To me, the best argument against CPF is that he is absolutely not the guy to do that.

 

[utmba93]

I suspect you know that to be untrue. I know you're trying hard to feel good about yourself at my expense, but this is a really weak way to try and do that.

In fact, best I can recall, Hat wasn't in this debate at the point I started making you look silly.

BPV, you are correct. It was a 'heat of the moment,' stupid thing to say.

 

[utmba93]

I can buy into the notion of some complacency for the coaching staff or the fans or even the returning players for perhaps a year or two, but even then I think that its no excuse. It may explain a regression, but it does not justify it (as would, say losing key members of the team to graduation and/or the NFL).

But even to the extent it explains a fall off for, say, two years, you have the next seven to account for. IMO, as an outside observer, the problems have been lack of innovation and keeping up with the Joneses in strategy and play-calling and, again relative to the Joneses, a drop off in talent.

The two feed off one another. When you don't have the speed and athleticism others have, you end up with a more conservative offense. And, the more conservative your offense appears to be, the less the highly-sought skill players are willing to come there.

Somehow, you have to break this cycle of modest players in a modest scheme. To me, the best argument against CPF is that he is absolutely not the guy to do that.

That makes sense. I'd like to be like Ras and blame Ainge for a lot of this, but it goes beyond one player.

Credit the conservative play calling as much as anything. We had some talented players, but who would have known.

We got out of step when Cut left the first time and never really got back in stride. Claw will either become one of the most beloved-coaches in UT football history over the next few years, or one of the ones with the shortest tenure. I hope like heck it's the former.

 

[thunder5]

I can buy into the notion of some complacency for the coaching staff or the fans or even the returning players for perhaps a year or two, but even then I think that its no excuse. It may explain a regression, but it does not justify it (as would, say losing key members of the team to graduation and/or the NFL).

But even to the extent it explains a fall off for, say, two years, you have the next seven to account for. IMO, as an outside observer, the problems have been lack of innovation and keeping up with the Joneses in strategy and play-calling and, again relative to the Joneses, a drop off in talent.

The two feed off one another. When you don't have the speed and athleticism others have, you end up with a more conservative offense. And, the more conservative your offense appears to be, the less the highly-sought skill players are willing to come there.

Somehow, you have to break this cycle of modest players in a modest scheme. To me, the best argument against CPF is that he is absolutely not the guy to do that.

I know you're completely smitten with your teams talent level but if UT has dropped off in that regard then how do you explain the top 5 recruiting classes (in the stated time frame...obviously not last year) and the fact that we continue to put anywhere from 2-6 players in the NFL on the first day of the draft every year....

You really need to quit putting all of your eggs in the 59-20 basket...if you haven't noticed there was an entire season after that where we managed to (among other things) hang with the eventual national champion and win 10 games...

I really don't believe talent has much of anything to do with our drop off...if anything our sustained level of talent adds fuel to the fire when it comes to attacking Fulmer