‘23 GA CB Branden Strozier (Clemson commit)

#6
#6
MoB_MoVols said:
-VQ
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How are these the "two clear cut defensive backs at the top of the board?"

I'm not saying they are bad but how are there not some 5 stars or high 4 stars on the board before these 2. One of which isn't ranked and the other is a low 4 star composite guy.

I know many will say "rankings don't matter" but they do. You don't see the echelon with these 2 at the top of there board.
 
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#8
#8
reVOLution33 said:
How are these the "two clear cut defensive backs at the top of the board?"

I'm not saying they are bad but how are there not some 5 stars or high 4 stars on the board before these 2. One of which isn't ranked and the other is a low 4 star composite guy.

I know many will say "rankings don't matter" but they do. You don't see the echelon with these 2 at the top of there board.
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Wait until the end to care about rankings. Start with if the coaches have seen them in person (camp, game, etc), then who else has offered and is recruiting them hard, then final rankings.
 
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#10
#10
reVOLution33 said:
How are these the "two clear cut defensive backs at the top of the board?"

I'm not saying they are bad but how are there not some 5 stars or high 4 stars on the board before these 2. One of which isn't ranked and the other is a low 4 star composite guy.

I know many will say "rankings don't matter" but they do. You don't see the echelon with these 2 at the top of there board.
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Recruiting site evals are way behind. Martinez has found under radar gems before that find themselves starters in NFL. It appears he has been offered by Florida who has an elite coaching staff on defensive side of the ball in Toney/Raymond, KY(Stoops), Campbell at Iowa St, Odom at Arky, and Martinez at TN. All guys that are pretty good at finding and evaluating DBs
 
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#11
#11
reVOLution33 said:
How are these the "two clear cut defensive backs at the top of the board?"

I'm not saying they are bad but how are there not some 5 stars or high 4 stars on the board before these 2. One of which isn't ranked and the other is a low 4 star composite guy.

I know many will say "rankings don't matter" but they do. You don't see the echelon with these 2 at the top of there board.
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Jeremiah Cobb finally got rated and is a top 130 recruit. Kaleb Webb was in the 1000s and is now a top 250 recruit. It's way too early
 
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#13
#13
reVOLution33 said:
How are these the "two clear cut defensive backs at the top of the board?"

I'm not saying they are bad but how are there not some 5 stars or high 4 stars on the board before these 2. One of which isn't ranked and the other is a low 4 star composite guy.

I know many will say "rankings don't matter" but they do. You don't see the echelon with these 2 at the top of there board.
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They matter... but not in the way or to the extent you think.

The reason these guys are at the top of the board (assuming that's true) is that professional coaches and the recruiting consultants UT pays to vet and evaluate players... believe they're the best two CB recruits.
 
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#14
#14
sjt18 said:
They matter... but not in the way or to the extent you think.

The reason these guys are at the top of the board (assuming that's true) is that professional coaches and the recruiting consultants UT pays to vet and evaluate players... believe they're the best two CB recruits.
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Why are Alabama, Georgia, LSU, OSU and others pushing hard for them? 🤔

This is my point. Because there are alot better players ahead of them.

Yes maybe by the end some will push for these 2 after they miss out of several others. But they aren't as of now.

I'm not saying they won't be good at some point but as of right now neither have even been offered by the teams I mentioned so why are these the top of our board?
 
#15
#15
reVOLution33 said:
How are these the "two clear cut defensive backs at the top of the board?"

I'm not saying they are bad but how are there not some 5 stars or high 4 stars on the board before these 2. One of which isn't ranked and the other is a low 4 star composite guy.

I know many will say "rankings don't matter" but they do. You don't see the echelon with these 2 at the top of there board.
Click to expand...

You do realize that VQ said the words “in our minds” right? Hubbs and AP don’t have access to the recruiting board. They are guessing. Pleas show us the upper echelon teams boards.
 
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#16
#16
reVOLution33 said:
Why are Alabama, Georgia, LSU, OSU and others pushing hard for them? 🤔
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If UT ever gets out of the ditch... the HC will do three things really well when it comes to talent. He will recognize guys with 3* ratings and 5* talent. He will find talent and develop great relationships BEFORE others notice. He will develop talent well.

You have it exactly reverse. If Bama, UGA, et al were pushing hard for these guys then they'd have higher ratings. Like others, you somehow think a handful of journalists at the recruiting websites find and independently evaluate all those 4/5* players then Saban and the gang go chasing after them. Few if any of those journalists has actually coached a college level football player. They do not have the expertise to recognize the nuances that make one guy an elite football player and another just a great athlete.

The recruiting site guys can go to camps and compare players and SPARQ scores. For the rest... they just pay attention to who is recruiting who.

This is my point. Because there are alot better players ahead of them.
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You have absolutely NO way of knowing that. None. Well over half of any draft will be made up of guys the recruiting sites gave 3 stars or less. IIRC, there are as many players that they don't even rank in most drafts than former 5* players. If your authority is the recruiting sites... it isn't a very good one.

Even more, some guys are culture fits and will help you build what you are building... some guys are problems in the locker room whose talent never outweighs the damage they do to team culture and unity. If these guys are at the top then you can count on them having great talent and ability... and being fits with Heupel's culture.

Yes maybe by the end some will push for these 2 after they miss out of several others. But they aren't as of now.
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And? I hope Heupel NEVER waits for the recruiting sites to confirm his opinions on player talent. That is a route to Butch Jones style failure.

I'm not saying they won't be good at some point but as of right now neither have even been offered by the teams I mentioned so why are these the top of our board?
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Maybe you don't know this but every major football program hires recruiting consultants. They are highly expert football guys who will review every scrap of film. They'll dig up every social media post. They'll talk to people and see what the reputation of the kid is. They'll talk to coaches, referees, friends, enemies,.... anyone who will talk. By the time they're done, coaches get a full profile to go with their own evaluations of talent, personality, character, temperment, etc.

IF these guys are at the top of UT's board then people with years of experience and elite expertise have put them there.

It is ALWAYS better to get on a recruit early. ALWAYS. If you or someone else identifies a problem then you can always back away. If you want a coach that follows Saban and Smart around hoping to gather some of their scraps... then we're just not looking for the same kind of coach.
 
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#17
#17
BigOrangeTrain said:
You do realize that VQ said the words “in our minds” right? Hubbs and AP don’t have access to the recruiting board. They are guessing. Pleas show us the upper echelon teams boards.
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That's true... but it also seems to be code with those two guys. They don't say things like that very often unless they're pretty sure it will make them look good if confirmed or denied.
 
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#18
#18
sjt18 said:
If UT ever gets out of the ditch... the HC will do three things really well when it comes to talent. He will recognize guys with 3* ratings and 5* talent. He will find talent and develop great relationships BEFORE others notice. He will develop talent well.

You have it exactly reverse. If Bama, UGA, et al were pushing hard for these guys then they'd have higher ratings. Like others, you somehow think a handful of journalists at the recruiting websites find and independently evaluate all those 4/5* players then Saban and the gang go chasing after them. Few if any of those journalists has actually coached a college level football player. They do not have the expertise to recognize the nuances that make one guy an elite football player and another just a great athlete.

The recruiting site guys can go to camps and compare players and SPARQ scores. For the rest... they just pay attention to who is recruiting who.

You have absolutely NO way of knowing that. None. Well over half of any draft will be made up of guys the recruiting sites gave 3 stars or less. IIRC, there are as many players that they don't even rank in most drafts than former 5* players. If your authority is the recruiting sites... it isn't a very good one.

And? I hope Heupel NEVER waits for the recruiting sites to confirm his opinions on player talent. That is a route to Butch Jones style failure.


Maybe you don't know this but every major football program hires recruiting consultants. They are highly expert football guys who will review every scrap of film. They'll dig up every social media post. They'll talk to people and see what the reputation of the kid is. They'll talk to coaches, referees, friends, enemies,.... anyone who will talk. By the time they're done, coaches get a full profile to go with their own evaluations of talent, personality, character, temperment, etc.

IF these guys are at the top of UT's board then people with years of experience and elite expertise have put them there.

It is ALWAYS better to get on a recruit early. ALWAYS. If you or someone else identifies a problem then you can always back away. If you want a coach that follows Saban and Smart around hoping to gather some of their scraps... then we're just not looking for the same kind of coach.
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Understand this, I have not said we shouldn't have offered them. But my question is why haven’t the upper echelon at least offered. At this point even if the upper school hadn't seen their film, they have by now because Tennessee offered.

I believe they are at the top of the board because our staff feels they are the most realistic prospects we can land, and if so that is lazy and honestly bad practice.

Butch Jones recruited players that didn't fit his system.

Jeremy Pruitt recruited his "guys" Warren Burrell was his number 1 and see where that has gotten us.

Derek Dooley only recruited skill players.

Kiffin did a good job recruiting but was only here 1 year.

Hopefully, heupel can take a card from all of them and come out on top. I'm just cautious.
 
#19
#19
@reVOLution33 I'm a gray beard so I have been watching this all play out for a long time. UT has in the past prioritized and signed some 4 and 5 star guys that the recruiting sites were giddy over. I'll list some names for you... just 5* for now.

Kenny "The Spotted Ape" O'Neal
Chris Donald
Demetrice Morley
Brandon Jeffries
James Banks
Ben Martin
Bryce Brown
DeAnthony Arnett
Kahlil McKenzie
Kyle Phillips

As a Vol fan you might recognize some of those names... but hopefully you'd agree that none of them deserved 5*.

UT for now isn't going to win a bunch of head to head recruiting battles for 5* guys with Bama. But there is MORE than enough talent besides those guys who the top programs see as 5* players to win. The coach who turns UT around will find more than his share of them and then will develop them into great players.
 
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#20
#20
sjt18 said:
@reVOLution33 I'm a gray beard so I have been watching this all play out for a long time. UT has in the past prioritized and signed some 4 and 5 star guys that the recruiting sites were giddy over. I'll list some names for you... just 5* for now.

Kenny "The Spotted Ape" O'Neal
Chris Donald
Demetrice Morley
Brandon Jeffries
James Banks
Ben Martin
Bryce Brown
DeAnthony Arnett
Kahlil McKenzie
Kyle Phillips

As a Vol fan you might recognize some of those names... but hopefully you'd agree that none of them deserved 5*.

UT for now isn't going to win a bunch of head to head recruiting battles for 5* guys with Bama. But there is MORE than enough talent besides those guys who the top programs see as 5* players to win. The coach who turns UT around will find more than his share of them and then will develop them into great players.
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Morley was a great player.
 
#21
#21
reVOLution33 said:
Understand this, I have not said we shouldn't have offered them. But my question is why haven’t the upper echelon at least offered. At this point even if the upper school hadn't seen their film, they have by now because Tennessee offered.
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Maybe because they don't like them for THEIR programs as well as other players? Maybe they haven't taken the time to evaluate them. Maybe one coaching staff or the other is just WRONG about those 2 guys. But I think I gave you a pretty thorough answer. If these guys are truly at the top of the board then they have been thoroughly vetted and the coaches believe in them.

I believe they are at the top of the board because our staff feels they are the most realistic prospects we can land, and if so that is lazy and honestly bad practice.
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Based on? Has the staff been lazy or careless? If so, how?

There is an element of realism a staff has to consider. Some players just aren't interested. Some of those players aren't interested as a matter of fact because the teams currently competing for the BCS every year want them. That doesn't make them better than these two guys or worse or equal. Just reality you have to deal with.

Butch Jones recruited players that didn't fit his system.
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Jones was a used car salesman. He was always concerned with hype and image. It had nothing to do with "system"... he seemed to think recruiting rankings would translate directly into wins and program momentum... much like you it seems. Do we really need to review the players that he, Rivals, and 247 thought were 4/5* worthy who busted?

Jeremy Pruitt recruited his "guys" Warren Burrell was his number 1 and see where that has gotten us.
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In what way does Pruitt's ability or inability to correctly evaluate one player relate to the current staff or any of their recruits?

Derek Dooley only recruited skill players.
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Dooley wasn't necessarily "lazy" but he had some ideas about recruiting that just don't work... and especially not at UT. He said in a presser that he wanted to recruit well but also wanted his coaches to have a "home life". As a result, they didn't compete well. Whereas UF jumped in their car and spent one say meeting with 6 or 8 prospects, UT's coaches spent two days traveling for every day of recruiting then Dooley lowered that expectation.

A lot of people hate Dooley. I don't. I pity him. Maybe more than any of the rest... he just didn't see what he was getting into. He was drowning from the day he took the job.

Kiffin did a good job recruiting but was only here 1 year.
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Did he? Some were good. There were a bunch of busts too.

Hopefully, heupel can take a card from all of them and come out on top. I'm just cautious.
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I won't fault you for being "cautious" but what you have said here isn't caution. You've drawn a bunch of negative conclusions based on incomplete information. You've assumed the worst without good reason to do so.

Maybe these guys are awful at talent evals and incompetent recruiters. Maybe the consultants they're using are awful and should be sued for malpractice. Maybe they're "lazy" and just riding it out until they get paid and fired? But the more likely answer is closer to what I wrote earlier. They have worked hard with expert consultants to identify top shelf talent that fits their culture... and have those guys at the top of their board.
 
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#25
#25
Emmanuel Moseley is the CLASSIC example of the kind of player that will be found by the coach who turns UT around. His offers out of HS were UT... Charlotte, ECU, NC A&T. UK and NCSU recruited him according to 247 but didn't offer him. Bama nor any other top SEC program... or middling SEC program... or bottom tier SEC program wanted him. No ACC program wanted him.

Now a pretty decent DB in the NFL.
 
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