Game Thread: (11/12) Lady Vols. 72 - Gonzaga. 73

#26
#26
If it makes sense to anybody that a team with four starters under six feet tall can outrebound a team that all the starters but one are well over six feet tall 41 to 30 then ok I guess there is no problem and I guess they understand just aren't athletic enough to compete against that type team. Defense the same maybe UCLA is so talented that what happened is exactly what should've happened. I guess we have no talent and ability that would be the other option to explaining what is going on.
 
#27
#27
ESPNU will televise the Lady Vol vs. Gonzaga game, with Kevin Fitzgerald (PxP) and Carolyn Peck (Analyst) on the call for the third-place game at the Women's Battle 4 Atlantis.

What's the over/under on Peck saying to get the ball inside?
 
#29
#29
I don't mean they are openly refusing to listen, but they never put it to practice in a game. I
Maybe you didn't mean it, but its exactly what you said. There are other reasons things don't translate from practice to games. Lack of focus, poise, and cohesive direction are not the same as refusal to listen and give effort. It's an easy fallback position, but its the ultimate insult to a player, far beyond hair, nails, etc.

This team reminds me of Holly's first team with Diamond DeShields. On paper, they looked really talented and seemed like a surefire lock for the FF and to challenge UConn for the title. They just could not figure out how to play together and ended up being significantly worse as a team than one would expect given the individual pieces. Holly never recovered from that season either. Whoever said this year was Kellie's Waterloo moment might actually have a point.
This literally makes me queasy, bc its so accurate. The DD comparison has crossed my mind, but I've managed to tamp it down so far. I totally agree, DD team was the end of Holly. I fervently hope KJH can find a road out that Holly could never manage.
 
#30
#30
Thats only because you read and hear what you want....

Ironically, I've come to appreciate the silly posts from the non-fans. Sure, they pretty much ruin game threads, but most fans are too busy listening or watching the actual game in real time to participate much then anyway. It does make reading game threads a bit of a challenge whenever someone responds to troll comments that are hidden, but that's okay, too.

The benefit of the troll clowns is that it provides a lot of levity to relieve the lingering disappointment or frustration from a poor LV performance. It's easy to get discouraged, but then along comes [insert Regular Troll names] with their silliness to (1) make us laugh and (2) makes us more determined than ever to support the team. After all, besides the obvious benefit of seeing the team thrive, the added bonus of sticking it to the trollers is icing on the cake. One would almost think that some of these crazy posts are actually done by employees of the UT athletic department just to get the actual fan base stirred up and redirect their ire toward the weird posters. That's just crazy enough to actually have some merit, because it's hard to imagine that actual sports fans could be that stupid to post some of this crap.

Hmmm...on the other hand....
 
Last edited:
#31
#31
To many posters want to talk about the offense yet all the problems stem from defense, rebounding, and just basic intelligent play.
While I understand the old mantra that defense and rebounding win championships, you cannot win games without scoring points. IMO our general confusion on offense and the resulting long scoring draughts effect everything else that goes on because it kills confidence and poise. Yes they can still play D and rebound, but I think a general sense of panic hinders that.
 
#32
#32
Maybe you didn't mean it, but its exactly what you said. There are other reasons things don't translate from practice to games. Lack of focus, poise, and cohesive direction are not the same as refusal to listen and give effort. It's an easy fallback position, but its the ultimate insult to a player, far beyond hair, nails, etc.


This literally makes me queasy, bc its so accurate. The DD comparison has crossed my mind, but I've managed to tamp it down so far. I totally agree, DD team was the end of Holly. I fervently hope KJH can find a road out that Holly could never manage.
Refusal was certainly the wrong word but how are you now be unable to get it when you've practiced it for couple months. Plus all these players are seniors they are not freshmen they been through this for several years and yet they are standing and watching on the court. How is your mind so unfocused that you can't bring yourself to do what you say you understand? Maybe it will all turn around and become a strong team just nothing appears to be headed in that direction.
 
#33
#33
Refusal was certainly the wrong word
Yes, it was. You aren't the only one, many rush to this "explanation". Saying the players are worthless frauds who don't care enough to try is the ultimate, ultimate insult.
how are you now be unable to get it when you've practiced it for couple months. Plus all these players are seniors they are not freshmen they been through this for several years and yet they are standing and watching on the court. How is your mind so unfocused that you can't bring yourself to do what you say you understand? Maybe it will all turn around and become a strong team just nothing appears to be headed in that direction.
THAT is the million dollar question. It is hard to understand, which is why so many of you quickly rush to players as naughty frauds to explain it. IMO it has more to do with hardest aspects of coaching, the intangibles. Like you, I hope against hope it will turn around.
 
  • Like
Reactions: creekdipper
#34
#34
While I understand the old mantra that defense and rebounding win championships, you cannot win games without scoring points. IMO our general confusion on offense and the resulting long scoring draughts effect everything else that goes on because it kills confidence and poise. Yes they can still play D and rebound, but I think a general sense of panic hinders that.
They are not scoring enough points because the shot differential in every game they lose is over 10 in the favor of the opponent. They scored 63 points on 52 shot attempts while UCLA shot the ball 62 times. We had a chance to make some of it up but missed 11 free throws. Indiana had a ten shot differential in that game as we only shot the ball 56 times. The best teams get up at least 70 shots in a game. SC shot terribly yesterday but had 73 shots to Stanford 66. SC was 38 percent from the field but defended well enough to make up their poor offensive play. Our danger zone is when any team scores 75 points on us and it is in 9 out of 10 cases the danger zone for any WCCB team. 87, 79, and 80 allowed by the defense is the major reasons we lost three games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NoBackBoard
#35
#35
It's still too early to draw any definitive conclusions about lack of effort, but (speaking as a former coach at a very minor level) there comes a time when the coach simply has to bench non-producing, more talented/experienced players in favor of the less-physically-gifted players who will hustle and go all out. Hoping that the Troubles are simply growing pains and the result of players unfamiliar with each other just not coming together. Timing, anticipation, knowing teammates' tendencies, speed, and preferences, etc. come from hours of playing together. The boxing out, hustle, etc. are individual challenges. There needs to be some ownership on the part of individual players and leadership from the upperclass demanding effort and adherence to the fundamentals. It shouldn't totally fall upon the coaching staff to exhort the players throughout the game.

That being said, CKH has to decide when it's time to abandon the sink-or-swim approach and help the team out with timeouts. As the coaches have said, the fans aren't in practices or the locker room, so we don't know what's being tried to correct flaws. We can, however, judge the in-game decisions from strategy adjustments to timeouts to substitution patterns, and we can see when things are working and when they're not. This season may prove to be the biggest test of CKH's ability to get a team to come together when the expected results haven't materialized (remember how she kept saying preseason that they can't skip steps to reach their goal). We all may have to look for baby steps and gradual improvement throughout the season rather than a sudden, miraculous change. The players may need to have a come-to-camp-meeting moment among themselves and decide if they're all in or not.

This season may also test the mettle of fans to see who can stay supportive through the growing process now that we can see that the Super Team didn't automatically appear on court as a well-oiled machine. Instead, it's like a shiny, new car that needs to be broken in in order to get peak performance.
 
Last edited:
#36
#36
Yes, it was. You aren't the only one, many rush to this "explanation". Saying the players are worthless frauds who don't care enough to try is the ultimate, ultimate insult.

THAT is the million dollar question. It is hard to understand, which is why so many of you quickly rush to players as naughty frauds to explain it. IMO it has more to do with hardest aspects of coaching, the intangibles. Like you, I hope against hope it will turn around.
I never said any of them are naughty frauds those are your words. I said they are refusing to do what is taught maybe not the best word maybe unable to get it is what is happening. I know one thing about basketball that always rings true if you can't rebound and play defense your not going to be a great team. There is not a team in any league that can depend on offense to win them a game very often just not a reality.
 
#37
#37
They are not scoring enough points because the shot differential in every game they lose is over 10 in the favor of the opponent. They scored 63 points on 52 shot attempts while UCLA shot the ball 62 times. We had a chance to make some of it up but missed 11 free throws. Indiana had a ten shot differential in that game as we only shot the ball 56 times. The best teams get up at least 70 shots in a game. SC shot terribly yesterday but had 73 shots to Stanford 66. SC was 38 percent from the field but defended well enough to make up their poor offensive play. Our danger zone is when any team scores 75 points on us and it is in 9 out of 10 cases the danger zone for any WCCB team. 87, 79, and 80 allowed by the defense is the major reasons we lost three games.
I do agree that last year, defensive intensity and rebounding helped us scrap along to win many games. Games we're losing now bc those aren't present. But IMO the fact remains we are NEVER going to reach elite if we don't develop a modern offense that the players have confidence in.
 
#38
#38
Refusal was certainly the wrong word but how are you now be unable to get it when you've practiced it for couple months. Plus all these players are seniors they are not freshmen they been through this for several years and yet they are standing and watching on the court. How is your mind so unfocused that you can't bring yourself to do what you say you understand? Maybe it will all turn around and become a strong team just nothing appears to be headed in that direction.

It may be heading in the right direction but just not fast enough. With almost half the starters new to the team along with some new subs, they just look to me like they have not played together. They are not sure who is going where so the ball gets stuck and someone goes one-on-one to save the day except they get little help and because we don't rebound well enough, we are one and done. Frustrating to real fans and fodder for trolls.
 
#39
#39
I never said any of them are naughty frauds those are your words.
In my book, a player who knows better, is capable of doing better, but decides its not worth the effort, they're naughty frauds. Of course I know you didn't actually mean that, and you've said that, but I don't think many realize what a stinging indictment saying stuff like that is. Especially bc its untrue and you know it! IMO hair and nails are nothing compared to this charge.

I will say that I, like you, are shocked and baffled by these problems, totally did not see them coming. Knew there would be blended family issues, but I thought talent would overcome it. Not so far.
 
#40
#40
I do agree that last year, defensive intensity and rebounding helped us scrap along to win many games. Games we're losing now bc those aren't present. But IMO the fact remains we are NEVER going to reach elite if we don't develop a modern offense that the players have confidence in.
Well the offense is scoring at 1.23 points per shot attempted which is close to elite just not enough possessions meaning shot attempts to score enough points to overcome giving up 80. Cause if you get outrebounded by 10 and commit 20 turnovers then your not getting the shots at goal and that is how you score points. You can look at any boxscore and the team that has the most offensive rebounds along with the least turnovers wins 8 of 10 times. Shooting percentage does come into play when all these stats are even. The great teams win these stats and in effect makes them win games. If we ever get to around 70 shot attempts it will mean were winning the rebounding and turnovers and the wins will start coming.
 
#41
#41
It may be heading in the right direction but just not fast enough. With almost half the starters new to the team along with some new subs, they just look to me like they have not played together. They are not sure who is going where so the ball gets stuck and someone goes one-on-one to save the day except they get little help and because we don't rebound well enough, we are one and done. Frustrating to real fans and fodder for trolls.
Right we still have time, but were now relegated almost certainly to doing the NCAA tourney the hard way not being a number one seed most likely. We can still get a top seed play the first two games at home, but it is looking already very likely were going to need to beat a one seed to get to a final four. We may become a team great enough to do that time will tell.
 
#42
#42
If our defense is, once again, unable to defend against the outside shot, we may lose this game. Forget about running off a missed shot and instead track the ball. We should have one or two players in position for the long rebound instead of everyone running to the paint when the ball leaves the shooters hand.

I think the blueprint has been shown on how to beat us. We don't defend the 3-ball well, Tamari is getting mugged and taken out of the game so our inside game is somewhat compromised because of it and we are not rebounding well.
 
#43
#43
In my book, a player who knows better, is capable of doing better, but decides its not worth the effort, they're naughty frauds. Of course I know you didn't actually mean that, and you've said that, but I don't think many realize what a stinging indictment saying stuff like that is. Especially bc its untrue and you know it! IMO hair and nails are nothing compared to this charge.

I will say that I, like you, are shocked and baffled by these problems, totally did not see them coming. Knew there would be blended family issues, but I thought talent would overcome it. Not so far.
I know what the problems are. They know what the problems are. The coaches know what the problems are. The boxscore always tells you the answer. If they start limiting teams to one shot per possession. At least force as many turnovers as you commit. We will at least be competitive with a chance to win at the end. We haven't been in the position in there of our games this season.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rooster1
#44
#44
It is early and there's lots of time, but I don't think we can brush this off as a couple of bad games anymore. This is a trend, and it needs to get reversed very soon before it's even more entrenched. Today would be a good time to start, but Gonzaga is exactly the kind of team that gives us fits. I bet their 3 pt shooters are licking their chops!
 
#45
#45
If our defense is, once again, unable to defend against the outside shot, we may lose this game. Forget about running off a missed shot and instead track the ball. We should have one or two players in position for the long rebound instead of everyone running to the paint when the ball leaves the shooters hand.
No doubt that UCLA just shot extremely well from the three yesterday. On about five or six of them they missed the first try got the rebound for a second try and in some cases a third. They can't shoot those shots if they miss the first and we get the ball. That is what has been doing quite a bit of damage to us. Second chance points were very high for our opponents in the last two losses. The Ohio State loss was cause totally by turning the ball over 10 times in one quarter and losing the quarter by 17 points.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rickster
#46
#46
It is early and there's lots of time, but I don't think we can brush this off as a couple of bad games anymore. This is a trend, and it needs to get reversed very soon before it's even more entrenched. Today would be a good time to start, but Gonzaga is exactly the kind of team that gives us fits. I bet their 3 pt shooters are licking their chops!

No, this can't be brushed off. It has to be fixed if we are going to have consistency this season.
 
#47
#47
Yes, it was. You aren't the only one, many rush to this "explanation". Saying the players are worthless frauds who don't care enough to try is the ultimate, ultimate insult.

THAT is the million dollar question. It is hard to understand, which is why so many of you quickly rush to players as naughty frauds to explain it. IMO it has more to do with hardest aspects of coaching, the intangibles. Like you, I hope against hope it will turn around.

We've all heard that the staff put a high premium on recruiting players with the right mind-set and fit for the program expectations. If we truly care about these young ladies and don't just regard them as we might professional athletes going to the highest bidder, we need to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to effort and cooperation with team and coaches. They're the ones who get the perks, yes, but they're also the ones who are targets of criticism, speculation, insults, etc. when things get rough.

If these were our sisters./daughters, we'd (I hope) be encouraging them that things will get better. They're having to adjust to new teammates AND new expectations. It's natural for some to have some doubts about diminished roles from what they were expecting with more experienced players coming in to assume those minutes. It's also natural for some of the new "stars" to either be reluctant to take charge from those who have been here and, conversely, to think that they have to take charge when things become stagnant. That's where the coaching staff has to try to keep them together...a tricky balance. Maybe the coaches just need to start fresh with running sets repeatedly and plugging in players until it becomes second nature where they are to be on the court in running a motion/screening/cutting offense and restricting the one-on-one plays, insisting on a certain number of screens/passes/cuts until a player comes open. That will initially create turnovers as bad passes are made or players get trapped with no outlet, but that's the painful part of the process. Eventually, they should learn to come to help teammates, to set (and use) screens, to find the best open option, etc. Having to focus on the common goal and working hard blocks out the noise; getting comfortable with each other reduces the "thinking too much" problem when open shooters pass up shots. They have to know that rebounders will be in place, that help defense will come, that teammates will call switches when necessary while not getting lazy and relying too much on help defense. They have to have confidence in each other and themselves, and that can only come through repetition.

Personally, while I agree with a lot of the questions posters have raised about offensive systems and game coaching, I think that most of the current problems are a result of too heavy an influence from the portal. One or two players added are easier to absorb both on and off the court; more than that, and you're basically starting over with a new team both on and off the court. I hope that we see a remarkable turnaround resulting in a memorable season; regardless, the problems with portal recruiting will continue if it becomes a mainstay rather than an addition.
 
#48
#48
Another thing to take note of, where has Tamari Key been on offensive? She took one field goal last game! That is completely unacceptable for a 6 foot 6 post to have one shot attempt. Gonzaga’s tallest player is only 6 foot 3. There is no reason why we cannot dominate this game in the paint.
 
  • Like
Reactions: creekdipper
#49
#49
We've all heard that the staff put a high premium on recruiting players with the right mind-set and fit for the program expectations. If we truly care about these young ladies and don't just regard them as we might professional athletes going to the highest bidder, we need to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to effort and cooperation with team and coaches. They're the ones who get the perks, yes, but they're also the ones who are targets of criticism, speculation, insults, etc. when things get rough.

If these were our sisters./daughters, we'd (I hope) be encouraging them that things will get better. They're having to adjust to new teammates AND new expectations. It's natural for some to have some doubts about diminished roles from what they were expecting with more experienced players coming in to assume those minutes. It's also natural for some of the new "stars" to either be reluctant to take charge from those who have been here and, conversely, to think that they have to take charge when things become stagnant. That's where the coaching staff has to try to keep them together...a tricky balance. Maybe the coaches just need to start fresh with running sets repeatedly and plugging in players until it becomes second nature where they are to be on the court in running a motion/screening/cutting offense and restricting the one-on-one plays, insisting on a certain number of screens/passes/cuts until a player comes open. That will initially create turnovers as bad passes are made or players get trapped with no outlet, but that's the painful part of the process. Eventually, they should learn to come to help teammates, to set (and use) screens, to find the best open option, etc. Having to focus on the common goal and working hard blocks out the noise; getting comfortable with each other reduces the "thinking too much" problem when open shooters pass up shots. They have to know that rebounders will be in place, that help defense will come, that teammates will call switches when necessary while not getting lazy and relying too much on help defense. They have to have confidence in each other and themselves, and that can only come through repetition.

Personally, while I agree with a lot of the questions posters have raised about offensive systems and game coaching, I think that most of the current problems are a result of too heavy an influence from the portal. One or two players added are easier to absorb both on and off the court; more than that, and you're basically starting over with a new team both on and off the court. I hope that we see a remarkable turnaround resulting in a memorable season; regardless, the problems with portal recruiting will continue if it becomes a mainstay rather than an addition.

Agree. It's obvious the team is not playing well. Also agree that parts of our game needs updating. I don't whine and cry about it. I'll leave it to the kindergarten police to blame and slam the players and staff. I'll continue to support them and take the Nega shots for doing so. Matters little as far as the team play goes. The AD will do the right thing.
 
#50
#50
Another thing to take note of, where has Tamari Key been on offensive?
Sadly, the same place she's been her whole career. Maybe she'll be a factor, maybe not. Never know game to game

And not bc of hair, nails, refusal, etc. BC of some physical limitations and intangilbles neither she nor any coach has ever been able to unlock, pun intended.
 
  • Like
Reactions: teacherdean

VN Store



Back
Top