Game Thread: (11/12) Lady Vols. 72 - Gonzaga. 73

[creekdipper]

It is early and there's lots of time, but I don't think we can brush this off as a couple of bad games anymore. This is a trend, and it needs to get reversed very soon before it's even more entrenched. Today would be a good time to start, but Gonzaga is exactly the kind of team that gives us fits. I bet their 3 pt shooters are licking their chops!

No doubt that UCLA just shot extremely well from the three yesterday. On about five or six of them they missed the first try got the rebound for a second try and in some cases a third. They can't shoot those shots if they miss the first and we get the ball. That is what has been doing quite a bit of damage to us. Second chance points were very high for our opponents in the last two losses. The Ohio State loss was cause totally by turning the ball over 10 times in one quarter and losing the quarter by 17 points.

No, this can't be brushed off. It has to be fixed if we are going to have consistency this season.

As elementary as it sounds, as one poster said, getting out on the three-point shooters and limiting those just improves chances drastically even if we give up twos. When a team makes 16 threes and you lose by 17, you can see the impact of all those extra points. And, as stated above, taking away the extra shot opportunities by rebounding well will also control the deficits.

Right now we're not a very good offensive or defensive team. But we have the talent to be both and to game plan for teams with other strengths (quickness, outstanding shooting, pressing). We have a really smart staff and smart players; time to use that knowledge as though we're the underdogs with less talent.

 

[Volfan2012]

Another thing to take note of, where has Tamari Key been on offensive? She took one field goal last game! That is completely unacceptable for a 6 foot 6 post to have one shot attempt. Gonzaga’s tallest player is only 6 foot 3. There is no reason why we cannot dominate this game in the paint.

Quite evident that teams try to take her out of the game. She gets ruffed up quite a bit in there and when she retaliates gets called for a foul. I wish she had a 10 to 12 foot shot or that she has one and just refuses to take it. That would help her scoring if they had to guard her a little further from the basket and it would help our drivers in their attempts to get to the basket.

 

[Volfan2012]

As elementary as it sounds, as one poster said, getting out on the three-point shooters and limiting those just improves chances drastically even if we give up twos. When a team makes 16 threes and you lose by 17, you can see the impact of all those extra points. And, as stated above, taking away the extra shot opportunities by rebounding well will also control the deficits.

Right now we're not a very good offensive or defensive team. But we have the talent to be both and to game plan for teams with other strengths (quickness, outstanding shooting, pressing). We have a really smart staff and smart players; time to use that knowledge as though we're the underdogs with less talent.

You really can't give up open threes you have to be up on them and if they make them then congrats to them. UCLA had wide open threes sometimes a player wasn't within five feet of them this is where we have to improve. Plus limit it all the one shot not three four shots like they got several times yesterday.

 

[Volfan2012]

Massey has us a three point favorite today. I will take it hopefully he is right on this.

 

[glv98]

we need to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to effort and cooperation with team and coaches.

"Effort" is such a complicated and misunderstood concept, especially since so many are so quick to link it to laziness, uncaring, selfishness etc. You often hear that incoming high school players have to learn how hard and how fast they have to play at this level. They don't know that degree of effort even exists, much less that they can give that much. Some never get there. And its damn tough to teach and coach.

But lack of it is usually NOT the result of bad personal behavior or willfulness. Fortunately every coach knows this, even if message board posters don't.

 

[Vols2015]

Quite evident that teams try to take her out of the game. She gets ruffed up quite a bit in there and when she retaliates gets called for a foul. I wish she had a 10 to 12 foot shot or that she has one and just refuses to take it. That would help her scoring if they had to guard her a little further from the basket and it would help our drivers in their attempts to get to the basket.

She does have 10 to 12 foot jumper. Shoots actually quite nicely. She hit several of those last year.

 

[Volfan2012]

She does have 10 to 12 foot jumper. Shoots actually quite nicely. She hit several of those last year.

I know but how many does she take not many even when open.

 

[Rixxx]

She does have 10 to 12 foot jumper. Shoots actually quite nicely. She hit several of those last year.

Yes, but does she have a hook shot?

 

[JFP]

If she makes it to the pros and plays all year she may be a much better player because of the forced conditioning.

 

[Darth_Vol]

Yes, but does she have a hook shot?

Nope, in year FOUR of the program...

 

[Darth_Vol]

This team reminds me of Holly's first team with Diamond DeShields. On paper, they looked really talented and seemed like a surefire lock for the FF and to challenge UConn for the title. They just could not figure out how to play together and ended up being significantly worse as a team than one would expect given the individual pieces. Holly never recovered from that season either. Whoever said this year was Kellie's Waterloo moment might actually have a point.

This is an outstanding point. The parallels are uncanny...

 

[OrangeBeachVol]

Some good thought out level headed responses today Creekdipper, especially #'s 35-47. That is way you respond to posters with whom you may disagree with, not with challenging their intelligence. Good job.

 

[Voltopia]

On paper, the stats and rosters would indicate that this is another team with the tools to beat Tennessee. I don't like saying that, but they've got several three point shooters, two of which are shooting better than 40% this season, upperclassmen guards, a few good sized posts that rebound and can also find and make perimeter shots. And Gonzaga showed they can be competitive in ranked games by taking down Louisville. I don't know which Tennessee will show up today, but if UCLA Tennessee shows up, it's, well, everyone had best hope Gonzaga's shots aren't falling.

 

[glv98]

This is an outstanding point. The parallels are uncanny...

And sickening. But the Holly culture was getting shaky already when the DDs arrived, they just finished it off. With gusto. Our impression is KJH has a good hold on her locker room still, but in the already minutes-challenged atmosphere, not playing well cannot be going over well. Poor Kellie, as the hole gets deeper the task gets harder. Hope today is some progress.

 

[Lucy]

I'm sure everyone is getting as tired of hearing this as I am of saying it, and especially seeing it play out. If we only had an offense, everyone would know where everyone else is, or should be, most of the time. But we don't have one beyond the one we rode to glory from the past millineum.

If you venture to the game thread, you'll see a good discussion about how in the world this could still be the case. Drea is about the thousandth commentator to call this out for over a decade, as well as fans for years and years. The answer that scares me so much is that because the LV institution won't tear away from the chains of the past, we are falling further and further behind.

I’m a little(lot) out of my depth here but I didn’t get she was talking about an offensive system I.e. Princeton of old. Maybe more like awareness and just keep moving, spacing, getting in front of your defender, being open for a pass. I could be totally wrong there and maybe heard my own concerns given all the new players.
My concern with adopting a strict system is if that is all you do and your conference figures out how to defend it, where are you? I do, however, feel set plays for each scorer would be great to have. I’m guessing they are already there though.

 

[glv98]

.

My concern with adopting a strict system is if that is all you do and your conference figures out how to defend it, where are you? I do, however, feel set plays for each scorer would be great to have. I’m guessing they are already there though.

LOL far beyond anything I'd ask is a strict system. Hell I'd just like a rough outline! How bout some out of bounds plays, maybe to our taller than everyone else center? Our end of quarter execution is awful as well. Screen for a 3 pt shooter? Darby is actually hitting a nice clip when we find her. Press break? Just an organizing principal to improve our spacing and decision making in half court would make me die happy. And hopefully give our players some poise and flow.

Lots and lots of coaches are able to provide a basic structure while allowing for the talents of their one on one scorers. We just never have.

 

[DarkPhoenix]

Another thing to take note of, where has Tamari Key been on offensive? She took one field goal last game! That is completely unacceptable for a 6 foot 6 post to have one shot attempt. Gonzaga’s tallest player is only 6 foot 3. There is no reason why we cannot dominate this game in the paint.

She’s 6’6 but plays 5’6, she doesn’t use her height well at all. She always lets way shorter girls snatch the ball from her and she just throws her hands up.

 

[Amb3096]

And sickening. But the Holly culture was getting shaky already when the DDs arrived, they just finished it off. With gusto. Our impression is KJH has a good hold on her locker room still, but in the already minutes-challenged atmosphere, not playing well cannot be going over well. Poor Kellie, as the hole gets deeper the task gets harder. Hope today is some progress.

Holly had a higher bar than Kellie did. We were all b!tching about the fact that Holly could "only" make the E8 and were calling for her head after 2 E8s and 1 S16. Even that E8 appearance wasn't enough to make up for the crummy season because she couldn't get them to the FF. I'm by no means defending Holly because she was proven to be a poor coach, but there's no question that we're all giving Kellie a longer leash than Holly ever got, and it's disheartening that she hasn't been able to match even those lower standards.

 

[DarkPhoenix]

Quite evident that teams try to take her out of the game. She gets ruffed up quite a bit in there and when she retaliates gets called for a foul. I wish she had a 10 to 12 foot shot or that she has one and just refuses to take it. That would help her scoring if they had to guard her a little further from the basket and it would help our drivers in their attempts to get to the basket.

She’s just not that good to be honest, no improvements in 4 years.

 

[glv98]

Holly had a higher bar than Kellie did. We were all b!tching about the fact that Holly could "only" make the E8 and were calling for her head after 2 E8s and 1 S16. Even that E8 appearance wasn't enough to make up for the crummy season because she couldn't get them to the FF. I'm by no means defending Holly because she was proven to be a poor coach, but there's no question that we're all giving Kellie a longer leash than Holly ever got, and it's disheartening that she hasn't been able to match even those lower standards.

No doubt the expectations for Holly were higher. I'm just saying as comparison w current team, Holly was beginning to lose the locker room before DD arrived and it was gone completely by the time she left. I'm not getting that KJH has lost her team. Yet.

Did Holly have a short leash? Cause I could swear it was about 2 years too long.

I don't think we know the length of Kellie's leash yet, it only just became an issue. And I still think leash talk is premature.On the other hand, this is all a very very bad look.

 

[Amb3096]

No doubt the expectations for Holly were higher. I'm just saying as comparison w current team, Holly was beginning to lose the locker room before DD arrived and it was gone completely by the time she left. I'm not getting that KJH has lost her team. Yet.

Did Holly have a short leash? Cause I could swear it was about 2 years too long.

I don't think we know the length of Kellie's leash yet, it only just became an issue. And I still think leash talk is premature.On the other hand, this is all a very very bad look.

Holly had a short leash. People were calling for her to be fired when they lost in the S16 to a Maryland team with freakin' Alyssa Thomas on it that made the FF the next season. Truthfully, I think Holly go let go when she deserved to. She wasn't the coach who could get the team to the 2nd week of the tournament on a semi-regular basis...but it should be noted that her prior season was as good as anything Kellie's done to date. Maybe except for the "losing the locker room". I don't know what that means, really. In-fighting? Ok, we know that Te'a and Jaime got in each other's faces. But so did Candace and Nicky, and that ended up not being a bad thing. Does it matter if the players get along/like each other if they play poorly together? Would we rather have a bunch of players that don't like each other, but know how to work together to be winners? Or is the opposite better? I think I might prefer the prior, if I'm being honest...

 

[FormerLadyVolFan]

Post of the season, so far...

It's still too early to draw any definitive conclusions about lack of effort, but (speaking as a former coach at a very minor level) there comes a time when the coach simply has to bench non-producing, more talented/experienced players in favor of the less-physically-gifted players who will hustle and go all out. Hoping that the Troubles are simply growing pains and the result of players unfamiliar with each other just not coming together. Timing, anticipation, knowing teammates' tendencies, speed, and preferences, etc. come from hours of playing together. The boxing out, hustle, etc. are individual challenges. There needs to be some ownership on the part of individual players and leadership from the upperclass demanding effort and adherence to the fundamentals. It shouldn't totally fall upon the coaching staff to exhort the players throughout the game.

That being said, CKH has to decide when it's time to abandon the sink-or-swim approach and help the team out with timeouts. As the coaches have said, the fans aren't in practices or the locker room, so we don't know what's being tried to correct flaws. We can, however, judge the in-game decisions from strategy adjustments to timeouts to substitution patterns, and we can see when things are working and when they're not. This season may prove to be the biggest test of CKH's ability to get a team to come together when the expected results haven't materialized (remember how she kept saying preseason that they can't skip steps to reach their goal). We all may have to look for baby steps and gradual improvement throughout the season rather than a sudden, miraculous change. The players may need to have a come-to-camp-meeting moment among themselves and decide if they're all in or not.

This season may also test the mettle of fans to see who can stay supportive through the growing process now that we can see that the Super Team didn't automatically appear on court as a well-oiled machine. Instead, it's like a shiny, new car that needs to be broken in in order to get peak performance.

 

[Vols2015]

All negative’s aside, I think reality has set in, and we were overhyped this year. I think this team needs a serious gut check of how much they want this. 3 losses early on is huge. We shouldn’t even be in the top 25 after losing to UCLA. This team is a lot like the past teams in the last decade, we are stacked with talent, top to bottom, but we lack the tangibles, the common sense aspects, such as passing, finding the open player, passing the ball with emphasis of where it’s need to go, grit, poise and determination. Defense should never take a night off, and our team is giving up practically 80 points a game, minus the Rutgers game.

I really like Karoline Striplin, and I think she needs to move into that starting role down low. We need to put a stigma that just because you’re a senior, or you’re taller, doesn’t mean you’re going to get that starters role. I like Jordan Horston, Jasmine Powell, and Rickea, Karoline at 5, and Tess Darby starting this next game. Tamari is not demanding the ball, and we don’t just need her for defense. Scoring 80 points a game isn’t even being phased by Tamari. Rebounding, defense, effort, grit, will and determination are not something a coach is supposed to coach. These are qualities that should be in every single Lady Vol that walks that floor. Just my thought. We have so much talent, but not enough team playing right now.

 

[Volfan2012]

All negative’s aside, I think reality has set in, and we were overhyped this year. I think this team needs a serious gut check of how much they want this. 3 losses early on is huge. We shouldn’t even be in the top 25 after losing to UCLA. This team is a lot like the past teams in the last decade, we are stacked with talent, top to bottom, but we lack the tangibles, the common sense aspects, such as passing, finding the open player, passing the ball with emphasis of where it’s need to go, grit, poise and determination. Defense should never take a night off, and our team is giving up practically 80 points a game, minus the Rutgers game.

I really like Karoline Striplin, and I think she needs to move into that starting role down low. We need to put a stigma that just because you’re a senior, or you’re taller, doesn’t mean you’re going to get that starters role. I like Jordan Horston, Jasmine Powell, and Rickea, Karoline at 5, and Tess Darby starting this next game. Tamari is not demanding the ball, and we don’t just need her for defense. Scoring 80 points a game isn’t even being phased by Tamari. Rebounding, defense, effort, grit, will and determination are not something a coach is supposed to coach. These are qualities that should be in every single Lady Vol that walks that floor. Just my thought. We have so much talent, but not enough team playing right now.

Exactly what i have been saying they have to know how to do all this they are seniors. The failures have been far more severe defensively than offensively. The most surprising thing to me has been how many of these senior players are playing more like freshmen when it comes to execution of defense and offense. This was unexpected and has been the most disappointing part of what has happened thus far.

 

[glv98]

Holly had a short leash. People were calling for her to be fired when they lost in the S16 to a Maryland team with freakin' Alyssa Thomas on it that made the FF the next season. Truthfully, I think Holly go let go when she deserved to. She wasn't the coach who could get the team to the 2nd week of the tournament on a semi-regular basis...but it should be noted that her prior season was as good as anything Kellie's done to date. Maybe except for the "losing the locker room". I don't know what that means, really. In-fighting? Ok, we know that Te'a and Jaime got in each other's faces. But so did Candace and Nicky, and that ended up not being a bad thing. Does it matter if the players get along/like each other if they play poorly together? Would we rather have a bunch of players that don't like each other, but know how to work together to be winners? Or is the opposite better? I think I might prefer the prior, if I'm being honest...

There were the famous player on player incidents during that period, but also parent on parent, and players against the coach and system. Felt to me like all control was lost.

Obviously I'd rather the players hate each other and play well together than the opposite, but I'm hardcore lol.