Game Thread Lady Vols at Wichita State

#376
#376
LVJeff said:
I very much enjoyed it. Both teams played hard. The arena was loud. It was great.

My advice is to take what positives you can and enjoy the ride. Forget the negative.
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Hooray+for+Mediocrity.jpg
 
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#378
#378
The main problem with the team is what I expected it to be at the beginning of the season. No three point shooting. If we had only decent three point shooting we are undefeated right now. So far on the season we have been outscored 183 to 99. In the two losses 42 to 15.

If they can't find some people to knock down a few threes consistently this could be a ten loss season. Almost every team has a couple three point shooters we have none. Diamond has never been more than around 32 percent and Dunbar can score out there but they can't seem to get her any shots or don't care to do so.
Cooper seems to be a shoot first guard and she is not a good shooter. I think she did most of her high school scoring getting to the basket against lesser talented players.
 
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#379
#379
Volfan2012 said:
The main problem with the team is what I expected it to be at the beginning of the season. No three point shooting. If we had only decent three point shooting we are undefeated right now. So far on the season we have been outscored 183 to 99. In the two losses 42 to 15.

If they can't find some people to knock down a few threes consistently this could be a ten loss season. Almost every team has a couple three point shooters we have none. Diamond has never been more than around 32 percent and Dunbar can score out there but they can't seem to get her any shots or don't care to do so.
Cooper seems to be a shoot first guard and she is not a good shooter. I think she did most of her high school scoring getting to the basket against lesser talented players.
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:eek:hmy: https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=alexa+middleton&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001 Powerade jam fest feature also probably missed this as well...https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=kortney+dunbar&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001
Elite Highlights...guess you did not know this!
 
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#382
#382
PineyBluff Vol said:
Not so...just doesn't happen that way...could be the coaching or lack there of!
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Not shooting with a relaxed motion because Holly says don't quick shoot the ball and the only thing that gets her mad is when they don't try to get the ball inside.
I think half these girls that can actually shoot are afraid to take the shots.
Then you have those that can't shoot that keep firing.
I think Middleton can shoot it but she has to have the green light and if she misses a few keep on shooting.
I think if that happened she would start knocking down about 35 percent of her threes at least.
 
#384
#384
One bad thing to consider is with the short bench these players will get used to the rotation and then when the other are healthy they will be back at square one.
 
#385
#385
Volfan2012 said:
Not shooting with a relaxed motion because Holly says don't quick shoot the ball and the only thing that gets her mad is when they don't try to get the ball inside.
I think half these girls that can actually shoot are afraid to take the shots.
Then you have those that can't shoot that keep firing.
I think Middleton can shoot it but she has to have the green light and if she misses a few keep on shooting.
I think if that happened she would start knocking down about 35 percent of her threes at least.
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The piling on Holly is getting a little ridiculous, in terms of what people are assuming she is telling or not tellin the players; Here is Draya quoted in the Tennessean:

We were saying to take what the defense gave you, and we knew our 3-pointers weren’t falling,” said Carter, who scored 14 points. “(The coaches) have been emphasizing mid-range jumpers, so when Jordan (Reynolds) found me twice, I wanted to make them. We needed them.”
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Unless Draya is lying CHW did not say "don't shoot" (or don't run as suggested in another post, cause that would make so much sense). Instead, her message was take what the offense gives you and the team smartly realized that continuing to miss 3pointers was not going to get the job done. Now, I get the argument that the team should be shooting a higher % (and that the coaching staff has to take some responsibility for that shortfall) but I don't think the recurrent claim that Holly has made the team afraid to shoot (and THAT is the cause) is the case.

There is criticism and then there is scapegoating.

The board consensus now seems to be be that Holly is the worst coach to ever walked the earth....She is completely responsible for everything fans don't like about the program and every substandard performance but she has had nothing to do with the teams 80% + win ratio; that's just luck or whatever.
 
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#386
#386
The players may feel like they are getting mixed messages. Holly has made pronouncements like "I told them I'd cut their arm off if they took another three" and "Look inside first" and "Don't quick shoot". And now "Take what the defense gives you" and apparently the coaches are emphasizing jumpers.

This last game not withstanding, Carter's hesitancy to shoot is obvious. I can see why she might be confused.
 
#387
#387
LVJeff said:
You come at this from a different perspective than I. I enjoyed the game. If you didn't, why do you watch?
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Obviously very different perspectives, because my question is HOW can you enjoy that?

Get back to me after two more games and let me know if you're still enjoying it...
 
#388
#388
LVJeff said:
The players may feel like they are getting mixed messages. Holly has made pronouncements like "I told them I'd cut their arm off if they took another three" and "Look inside first" and "Don't quick shoot". And now "Take what the defense gives you" and apparently the coaches are emphasizing jumpers.

This last game not withstanding, Carter's hesitancy to shoot is obvious. I can see why she might be confused.
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Holly was also saying in interviews last year that she was begging Andraya to shoot more. So I don't think in her case, at least, it's as much to do with being confused as not having confidence in her shot. If she missed that first mid range jumper, I doubt she takes the second one even though she was wide open. That's been her pattern in the past.

If Holly was indeed getting on the guards cases for not going inside first, then there is no explanation for why she doesn't pull Cooper when she goes 1 on 4 for the third time in a row.

What Holly does need to emphasize more is getting the guards to practice 3-pt shooting until the sun comes up. She must know it's a liability, and it's killing the inside game if no one on the team can punish opposing defenses for clogging the middle.
 
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#389
#389
Darth_Vol said:
Obviously very different perspectives, because my question is HOW can you enjoy that?

Get back to me after two more games and let me know if you're still enjoying it...
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You dodged my question. I am not surprised.

You also have a habit of belittling others with your posts. I am reminded of the line from "12 Angry Men" where the crusty old racist snapped at the immigrant "Why are you always so polite?" and the immigrant snapped back "For the same reason you are not - the way I was raised".

In two games or two hundred games I'll still enjoy it. I enjoyed it in 1975 and I do today.
 
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#390
#390
Amb3096 said:
Holly was also saying in interviews last year that she was begging Andraya to shoot more. So I don't think in her case, at least, it's as much to do with being confused as not having confidence in her shot. If she missed that first mid range jumper, I doubt she takes the second one even though she was wide open. That's been her pattern in the past.

If Holly was indeed getting on the guards cases for not going inside first, then there is no explanation for why she doesn't pull Cooper when she goes 1 on 4 for the third time in a row.

What Holly does need to emphasize more is getting the guards to practice 3-pt shooting until the sun comes up. She must know it's a liability, and it's killing the inside game if no one on the team can punish opposing defenses for clogging the middle.
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I am with you on this one. Great scorers have short memories and assume the next one is going in. Draya gets skittish after the first miss.

I think the emphasis on the mid-range jumper is the actual meaning of Holly's "don't quick shoot the ball" mantra.

It is a way of saying, we get open threes any time but we shoot a low percentage so lets work for a better % shot.

I am sure if there was a game where the team hits a higher % from beyond the act (and they have had and will some "hot" games), Holly won't say a word about quick shooting the ball.
 
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#391
#391
LVJeff said:
You dodged my question. I am not surprised.
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Why did I watch the game? Like you, decades of Lady Vol fandom. Unlike you, I don't particularly enjoy watching a team play so far below its potential. I was fully expecting a blowout tuneup before the West Coast trip. The talent disparity is so great between the two teams I didn't think even Holly would negate that. Silly me. :no:

LVJeff said:
You also have a habit of belittling others with your posts. I am reminded of the line from "12 Angry Men" where the crusty old racist snapped at the immigrant "Why are you always so polite?" and the immigrant snapped back "For the same reason you are not - the way I was raised".
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Wait... are you belittling me here? :cray:

LVJeff said:
In two games or two hundred games I'll still enjoy it. I enjoyed it in 1975 and I do today.
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That's great, you are welcome to pretend everything is wonderful and ignore the fact that this program has serious issues right now. Just don't be surprised if the vast majority of fans don't share your perspective...
 
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#394
#394
Darth_Vol said:
That's great, you are welcome to pretend everything is wonderful and ignore the fact that this program has serious issues right now. Just don't be surprised if the vast majority of fans don't share your perspective...
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I don't and never pretended anything of the sort. That's you assuming. I have posted often of my concerns for the poor offense and the teams inbalance. If you had read my posts on the subject you would know what my perspective is...
 
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#395
#395
git a room, youse 2. :(


ps, youse is proper english if you have lived in the NJ/philly area. Means YOU.


lol
 
#396
#396
fyi You can see our next opponent, Stanford play the first team to beat us, Texas today @ 1:00 pm est. on espn.

Should give a good indication of what they will face next. Texas is at home, though.
 
#397
#397
Amb3096 said:
Holly was also saying in interviews last year that she was begging Andraya to shoot more. So I don't think in her case, at least, it's as much to do with being confused as not having confidence in her shot. If she missed that first mid range jumper, I doubt she takes the second one even though she was wide open. That's been her pattern in the past.

If Holly was indeed getting on the guards cases for not going inside first, then there is no explanation for why she doesn't pull Cooper when she goes 1 on 4 for the third time in a row.

What Holly does need to emphasize more is getting the guards to practice 3-pt shooting until the sun comes up. She must know it's a liability, and it's killing the inside game if no one on the team can punish opposing defenses for clogging the middle.
Click to expand...

Maybe we'll never know why Carter doesn't shoot more. Whether it is Carter not shooting, Reynolds getting 30 plus minutes per game while bringing absolutely nothing to the offensive side of the ball, or Cooper getting a free pass while being a poor shooting gun, one thing is for sure, Holly's handling of the offense is poor at best.

The biggest problem is systemic in nature, Holly insists on having two post on the floor at the same time and running the ball through them.

But even that system would work better if Holly would only practice it more. By her own admission, she puts no focus on it, she doesn't have the team practice shooting saying we are great shooters we don't need to practice that, and they spend no more than 30% of their time on offensive sets. It's the most important part of the game, being able to score, and she doesn't focus on it. Strange.
 
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#398
#398
Volfan2012 said:
Not shooting with a relaxed motion because Holly says don't quick shoot the ball and the only thing that gets her mad is when they don't try to get the ball inside.
I think half these girls that can actually shoot are afraid to take the shots.
Then you have those that can't shoot that keep firing.
I think Middleton can shoot it but she has to have the green light and if she misses a few keep on shooting.
I think if that happened she would start knocking down about 35 percent of her threes at least.
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This is the crux of the problem...Holly has got to let these girls play... and if they miss...pat them on the back and hope they hit the next one. "I think half these girls that can actually shoot are afraid to take the shots.
Then you have those that can't shoot that keep firing.
I think Middleton can shoot it but she has to have the green light and if she misses a few keep on shooting." There is enough pressure on these kids, without, knowing, " if I miss this shot, I will be back on the bench".
I am in no way saying that there should be no pressure, after all, you are playing for a very storied program.

Something else, just caught my eye...shooting with a relaxed motion. Shooting with a relaxed motion to me means, shooting when I feel I can hit the shot. Most spot up shooters, feel that if they have prepared right for their shot, that shot takes place as soon as they get the ball. No time to look inside to see who might be open, catch and shoot is the motto for most S.U.S.'s. If you tell me I have to look inside to see who is open, my opportunity has passed.
 
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#399
#399
LVJeff said:
Maybe we'll never know why Carter doesn't shoot more. Whether it is Carter not shooting, Reynolds getting 30 plus minutes per game while bringing absolutely nothing to the offensive side of the ball, or Cooper getting a free pass while being a poor shooting gun, one thing is for sure, Holly's handling of the offense is poor at best.

The biggest problem is systemic in nature, Holly insists on having two post on the floor at the same time and running the ball through them.

But even that system would work better if Holly would only practice it more. By her own admission, she puts no focus on it, she doesn't have the team practice shooting saying we are great shooters we don't need to practice that, and they spend no more than 30% of their time on offensive sets. It's the most important part of the game, being able to score, and she doesn't focus on it. Strange.
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I don't think a double post offense is inherently bad. most teams with size will do the same. THE problem is that the guards can't consistently produce on the offensive end, so teams can clamp down the middle and not give Graves Russell space to operate down low. Graves can help her case by shooting the 15 footer when it comes open, but she has to make it part of her normal instinct, not an afterthought.

Bottom line is that the guards need to step it up on offense, or else Tennessee isn't going anywhere close to the Final Four.
 
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#400
#400
Amb3096 said:
I don't think a double post offense is inherently bad. most teams with size will do the same. THE problem is that the guards can't consistently produce on the offensive end, so teams can clamp down the middle and not give Graves Russell space to operate down low. Graves can help her case by shooting the 15 footer when it comes open, but she has to make it part of her normal instinct, not an afterthought.

Bottom line is that the guards need to step it up on offense, or else Tennessee isn't going anywhere close to the Final Four.
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I agree it's not inherently bad, but the systemic part of the problem is that she's running an offense that she has players that aren't suited for it. A two post offense works best when you have a strong perimeter game. The perimeter game may well yet show up. We'll see.
 
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