great day for wisconsin

#76
#76
tvolsfan said:
I don't buy that. I'm not saying people on here defend that, but many of the liberals I know have seemingly gone insane in discussing this. Some have been making comparisons between the Wisconsin republicans and Hitler. Same people basically start crying when Obama is compared to someone unfavorable from the past.
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I don't know a soul making that comparison. And no one I know has "gone insane" over it. Most people seem to understand that it was originally justified as necessary to pass a budget this year. The unions and the Dems said okay to the demands as to contributing to retirement and to health care, but then the justification sort of shifted and there wasn't much of one offered.

Then yesterday the GOP bypassed the rules by saying its NOT a fiscal matter, so they could pass it.

Everyone knows exactly what is going on here -- its an effort to break the unions so as to weaken their support of Democrats. That's okay, i don't mind them trying to do that. When the Democrats take control of various state governments, or the federal government, they take steps to turn off the dollars going to Republicans, too.

But I think there is zero chance that Walker gets reelected and they may try, and succeed, in a recall. Same for the GOP members of the Assembly.
 
#77
#77
lawgator1 said:
Then yesterday the GOP bypassed the rules by saying its NOT a fiscal matter, so they could pass it.
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The democrats ran and hid in another state to prevent a vote. Republicans are answering one dirty tactic with another.

If they voted before the dems ran, it would have all been passed. Whenever the dems come back, the rest of the bill will be passed. Either way the outcome would be the same. Although I don't think doing it this way makes the republicans look good.
 
#78
#78
It's great to see the Class War in such bold and bright colors. I deplore the usual mystification of the obvious. There are Classes, and the WI Republicans declared Class War (after generating a fictitious fiscal problem in the first place - tax cuts to corporations 140mn / deficit: 137bn).

Could this be a pivotal moment? Labor does not need Capital. However, Capital is nothing without the surplus-value of Labor. The US must lead an international workers' solidarity movement; it MUST come from the US as the global capital hegemon.

However, I don't think it is about to happen. At most, Walker will be recalled, but he will have done his job. He will be feted by capital afterwards and taken very good care of.

The structural contradictions of capitalism are at critical mass. It has no where to go now, but to roll back the gains of the Enlightenment. And, of course, it does this unapologetically and against the wishes of the supermajority. I can't help but laugh at those who believe this is "freedom." [sic]

I actually can't be sad about this. I think it will take much more (Social Security MIGHT be the Archimidean pivot), but this episode in WI has, certainly, roused folks from their slumber, and given everyone a round in the ring with the Class War. The mystification, the fog of the "classless" propaganda has been well and truly blown away.
 
#79
#79
utgibbs said:
It's great to see the Class War in such bold and bright colors. I deplore the usual mystification of the obvious. There are Classes, and the WI Republicans declared Class War (after generating a fictitious fiscal problem in the first place - tax cuts to corporations 140mn / deficit: 137bn).

Could this be a pivotal moment? Labor does not need Capital. However, Capital is nothing without the surplus-value of Labor. The US must lead an international workers' solidarity movement; it MUST come from the US as the global capital hegemon.

However, I don't think it is about to happen. At most, Walker will be recalled, but he will have done his job. He will be feted by capital afterwards and taken very good care of.

The structural contradictions of capitalism are at critical mass. It has no where to go now, but to roll back the gains of the Enlightenment. And, of course, it does this unapologetically and against the wishes of the supermajority. I can't help but laugh at those who believe this is "freedom." [sic]

I actually can't be sad about this. I think it will take much more (Social Security MIGHT be the Archimidean pivot), but this episode in WI has, certainly, roused folks from their slumber, and given everyone a round in the ring with the Class War. The mystification, the fog of the "classless" propaganda has been well and truly blown away.
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Do you believe that the value of Wisconsin state employees increases every year?
 
#81
#81
lawgator1 said:
I don't know a soul making that comparison. And no one I know has "gone insane" over it. Most people seem to understand that it was originally justified as necessary to pass a budget this year. The unions and the Dems said okay to the demands as to contributing to retirement and to health care, but then the justification sort of shifted and there wasn't much of one offered.

Then yesterday the GOP bypassed the rules by saying its NOT a fiscal matter, so they could pass it.

Everyone knows exactly what is going on here -- its an effort to break the unions so as to weaken their support of Democrats. That's okay, i don't mind them trying to do that. When the Democrats take control of various state governments, or the federal government, they take steps to turn off the dollars going to Republicans, too.

But I think there is zero chance that Walker gets reelected and they may try, and succeed, in a recall. Same for the GOP members of the Assembly.
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Wow! What color is the sky in your world? That is some serious revisionist history.
 
#82
#82
TheDeeble said:
The democrats ran and hid in another state to prevent a vote. Republicans are answering one dirty tactic with another.

If they voted before the dems ran, it would have all been passed. Whenever the dems come back, the rest of the bill will be passed. Either way the outcome would be the same. Although I don't think doing it this way makes the republicans look good.
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At this point, I don't give a damn how it looks. I'm glad they got it done.
 
#83
#83
VOLatile said:
You should see what actually happened. FYI, they removed all BUDGET RELATED material from the BUDGET BILL. Didn't allow for an open meeting, which is ILLEGAL according to WI law. Didn't allow motions or tell the Democrats what was removed from the bill.
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I could debate this on a rational level like the others did who responded to this post earlier but I wont. Instead, I'll actually give you my opinion and how I feel.

I'm glad the democrats had this shoved down their throats and had to learn about it from some tv in a hotel room a state away. They were gutless and got what they deserved.

I will also point out that their was never any real debate over Obamacare. The little meeting was a joke and the bill was crammmed down the Republicans throats. They never ran though.

I enjoyed this. I enjoy watching all the unions fall like dominoes across the country. This will kill the war chest for any future Democrat. I relish this moment.
 
#84
#84
A paraphrase from when Nixon met with some Vietnam protesters comes to mind (the coming together part is not meant to be literal): The two sides came together and left in a mutual state of disbelief.... This situation just reminded me of that for some reason or other.
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#85
#85
I'm considered "liberal," but this was just an all around embarrassing effort by Wisconsin Democrats. I just saw the democrats *****ing about the bill. WTF? How is leaving your state helping anything at all? You were elected to represent people, not to abandon them, and if you think that is gonna make them want to vote for you, you may be wrong. Sorry Rant over.
 
#86
#86
lawgator1 said:
You mean like the GOP state senator who called the protestors a bunch of slobs?

I think the Nazi comparison just makes people roll their eyes at this point, its played out.

Not sure what physical damage they did. I know there was an issue about the police not letting people come back in when they left, so you ended up with a bunch that decided to basically live in the building for fear that going home for a day would mean they could not exercise their rights.

Hitting a Fox reporter? I would like to see what really happened there and why, the circumstances, etc.

Who have they intimidated? Seems to me that Walker over time has become more intransigent, not less so.
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The first round of protest sparked a 7.5 million dollar clean up bill. In today's occupation of the state building senators were barred from leaving their offices by protestors and some windows were broken to gain access.

But at the risk of sounding like Gibbs you've proved my point about the double standard. The townhall meetings and TP rallies were no more uncivil nor violent than these protests and I would suggest they were less so. Yet there was an outcry about how unruly, uncivil and downright dangerous they were.

Not a peep about these protests - yep you proved my point about the double standard.
 
#87
#87
VOLatile said:
It's kind of funny that collective bargaining is recognized through human rights organizations, specifically Article 23 of Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Not that that really means anything here in America, though.
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But we're not talking about private or corporate unions here. We're talking about public unions.

How should it be a right for public employees to demaind a raise in their standard of living by lowering mine by force of big govt? States operate on a tax generated budget. Not profit or sales.
 
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#89
#89
Laughing at those who care if this guy is reelected. He's already done more to help his state and the country than any governor in recent memory.
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#90
#90
ahhh civility

Jesse Jackson sends a warning message during an appearance on FOX News: "So they're going to escalate the protests -- you will either have collective bargaining through a vehicle called collective bargaining or you're going to have it through the streets. People here will fight back because they think their cause is moral and they have nowhere else to go."
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