Greece is resisting austerity

#51
#51
droski said:
gibbs would happy if we were like greece and allowed our rich to not report 80% of their income. because hey then reported income disparaties would be narrower meaning the poor would be so much happier and better off.
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exactly. Perception of relative wealth, even in fantasyland, is much better than the ability to create wealth. Another sweet offshoot would be to wipe out the MD route to wealth and eliminating medical advancement in the process. Can't wait.
 
#52
#52
utgibbs said:
We're improving then.

"Economic Freedom" is a euphamism for lack of restrictions on capital flight, socialism for the investor class (so, your numbers are actually cooked as a political gimmick during the time of Obama; or they are celebrating the crazies being elected in Canada), and other neoliberal crazy economics.
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Canada's PM is a conservative. Unless I am inept at detecting sarcasm.
 
#53
#53
utgibbs said:
We're improving then.

"Economic Freedom" is a euphamism for lack of restrictions on capital flight, socialism for the investor class (so, your numbers are actually cooked as a political gimmick during the time of Obama; or they are celebrating the crazies being elected in Canada), and other neoliberal crazy economics.
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You're in hopeless denial.
 
#54
#54
KiffinKiller said:
Social programs work if done correctly. Our government is too inept to run them efficiently.
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Social programs do not work. The only illusion under which they can appear to work is when they are very, very small in comparison to the overall economy. There is no country nor has there ever been that was good enough to administer a welfare state as large as the one we have.... much less the one the left would like to create.

As an analogy, a football team can afford a few recruits that end up being dead weight. When you get as many non-productive scholarship players as the 2007 class produced then you sink the program. The economy can stand "a little" added expense. Those working and creating wealth cannot carry as much of the population as is currently on some form of social program.

Private charity is ALWAYS more efficient and effective at helping the poor and dealing with social problems. It is not always employed... it is sometimes perhaps not "sufficient"... but its value is always higher.
 
#55
#55
utgibbs said:
Exactly when was that?
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When our gov't absorbed less than 7% of GDP and RIGHTLY recognized that redistribution of wealth was NOT a Constitutional or correct function of the federal gov't. IOW's, up until about 1912 when progressives took over both parties.

Prior to that time, care for the poor and elderly were rightly seen as private matters for charitable groups and churches or in the worst case states.
 
#56
#56
utgibbs said:
We're improving then.

"Economic Freedom" is a euphamism for lack of restrictions on capital flight, socialism for the investor class (so, your numbers are actually cooked as a political gimmick during the time of Obama; or they are celebrating the crazies being elected in Canada), and other neoliberal crazy economics.
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Those numbers are biased.... but for none of the reasons you give.
 
#57
#57
sjt18 said:
Social programs do not work. The only illusion under which they can appear to work is when they are very, very small in comparison to the overall economy. There is no country nor has there ever been that was good enough to administer a welfare state as large as the one we have.... much less the one the left would like to create.

As an analogy, a football team can afford a few recruits that end up being dead weight. When you get as many non-productive scholarship players as the 2007 class produced then you sink the program. The economy can stand "a little" added expense. Those working and creating wealth cannot carry as much of the population as is currently on some form of social program.

Private charity is ALWAYS more efficient and effective at helping the poor and dealing with social problems. It is not always employed... it is sometimes perhaps not "sufficient"... but its value is always higher.
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Canada has been providing health care to her citizen's for decades - I'll take your word that it's not working.
 
#59
#59
KiffinKiller said:
Canada has been providing health care to her citizen's for decades - I'll take your word that it's not working.
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Canada's citizens cross the border to get care at their own expense because waiting lists are too long, quality is subpar, and/or they are denied care altogether. They have rationing... Is that supposed to be an example of a social program that works?

Moreover, because our gov't allows it, western nations with gov't healthcare put price controls on new drugs. They transfer the costs of R&D to the US consumer. If we did not bear that cost then many new treatments would never exist. Once again, the left is willing to kill the Golden Egg Goose because to many want free eggs.
 
#61
#61
sjt18 said:
Canada's citizens cross the border to get care at their own expense because waiting lists are too long, quality is subpar, and/or they are denied care altogether. They have rationing... Is that supposed to be an example of a social program that works?

Moreover, because our gov't allows it, western nations with gov't healthcare put price controls on new drugs. They transfer the costs of R&D to the US consumer. If we did not bear that cost then many new treatments would never exist. Once again, the left is willing to kill the Golden Egg Goose because to many want free eggs.
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You are great at using sweeping generalizations. I'm sure you've experienced these glaring deficiencies first hand. My parents have been living in Canada for 50 years without a single complaint of sub-par care or "rationing". Don't let that stop you from campaigning against social programs.
 
#63
#63
sjt18 said:
Canada's citizens cross the border to get care at their own expense because waiting lists are too long, quality is subpar, and/or they are denied care altogether. They have rationing... Is that supposed to be an example of a social program that works?

Moreover, because our gov't allows it, western nations with gov't healthcare put price controls on new drugs. They transfer the costs of R&D to the US consumer. If we did not bear that cost then many new treatments would never exist. Once again, the left is willing to kill the Golden Egg Goose because to many want free eggs.
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Don't bother backing up you're accusations with facts.
 
#64
#64
KiffinKiller said:
imperfection = failure?
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You said social programs work. He provided direct proof that YOUR example did not work. The PM isn't alone. Many of their citizens cross the border rather than wait or accept a denial of care.

And they have other advantages. They are not seen as the world's leader... no one looks to Canada to "fix" what's wrong in the world. OUR military provides and umbrella of protection enabling them to spend much less on defense.

They have a smaller and much more homogenous population.

Even with the advantages they have.... the best example you could come up with is NOT a "success".
 
#65
#65
MG1968 said:
how often do you travel to Winnipeg for treatment?
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I grew up in Canada. I would tell you if the system was a complete failure. I'm more afraid of our system. God forbid someone in my family gets cancer and I have to refinance the house.
 
#66
#66
sjt18 said:
You said social programs work. He provided direct proof that YOUR example did not work. The PM isn't alone. Many of their citizens cross the border rather than wait or accept a denial of care.

And they have other advantages. They are not seen as the world's leader... no one looks to Canada to "fix" what's wrong in the world. OUR military provides and umbrella of protection enabling them to spend much less on defense.

They have a smaller and much more homogenous population.

Even with the advantages they have.... the best example you could come up with is NOT a "success".
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We are the poster boys of denying care.
 
#67
#67
KiffinKiller said:
I grew up in Canada. I would tell you if the system was a complete failure. I'm more afraid of our system. God forbid someone in my family gets cancer and I have to refinance the house.
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why should my tax dollars be used for your family member's health care?
 
#68
#68
sjt18 said:
You said social programs work. He provided direct proof that YOUR example did not work. The PM isn't alone. Many of their citizens cross the border rather than wait or accept a denial of care.

And they have other advantages. They are not seen as the world's leader... no one looks to Canada to "fix" what's wrong in the world. OUR military provides and umbrella of protection enabling them to spend much less on defense.

They have a smaller and much more homogenous population.

Even with the advantages they have.... the best example you could come up with is NOT a "success".
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Let me clarify - I'm not demanding we adopt Canada's system...it wouldn't work here. Our tax system, management and leadership are too inept too work on such a large scale. My point was that a social program can work in the right circumstance.
 
#69
#69
MG1968 said:
why should my tax dollars be used for your family member's health care?
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More than 50% of Canada's pop pay taxes.

As a population, they also have a much different mindset on these issues. In my experience, Canadians are much less afraid of their neighbors getting a free meal. Whether this is because relatively less Canadians try to skirt by...I don't know.
 
#70
#70
KiffinKiller said:
Don't bother backing up you're accusations with facts.
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The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007

Here's a start for you. If you need more, search "canada health care problems".

Oh.... and if you are trying to compare their system to ours as proof that "social programs" work... then you have to account for the fact that about 1/3 of all Americans are on some type of gov't run healthcare program. To a very, very large measure, health related social programs and imposed bureacracy in America ARE the problem that drive up costs for everyone.
 
#71
#71
KiffinKiller said:
Let me clarify - I'm not demanding we adopt Canada's system...it wouldn't work here. Our tax system, management and leadership are too inept too work on such a large scale. My point was that a social program can work in the right circumstance.
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And you are wrong. Their system only works if you accept far less than efficient and effective as "working".
 
#73
#73
KiffinKiller said:
You are great at using sweeping generalizations. I'm sure you've experienced these glaring deficiencies first hand. My parents have been living in Canada for 50 years without a single complaint of sub-par care or "rationing". Don't let that stop you from campaigning against social programs.
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how many life threatening illnesses have they had?
 
#75
#75
droski said:
isn't that your fault for not having insurance? if your house burns down is it societies fault for not having universal fire insurance?
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Having insurance doesn't guarantee the insurance company covers all $500,000 of treatment.
 
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