Greece is resisting austerity

#103
#103
In the position I am in, I deal with many people across the country and in Canada. I can tell you that one that lives in Montreal said this to me when the healthcare debate was going on here

"You dont want governmen healthcare. America has the best healthcare in the nation because the government doesnt run it"

Being in government myself I can say this statement is the truth.

He said that the better Canadian doctors were moving or had moved out of Canada. He said you were fine as long as you didnt need major healthcare. If you had a cold, you could go to the corner clinic, show your card, and everything was fine. Break an arm, it may be days before you get seen. They will immobilize it and give you medicine, but you had to get on a waiting list for surgery.

Get cancer or need a transplant, you are up **** creek. Told me that he has known several people that died on the waiting list for treatment.

Take or leave it, but he has no reason to lie about it.
 
#109
#109
KiffinKiller said:
So, wait. Why are you asking for an apology?
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Because you insenuated that I was at least one degree of separation from contacting "the poor"... that my only experience of compassion for people in need was through a second party.

That seemed to be your message anyway. If it was... then it is pure ignorance. Just because I recognize that social programs generally destroy those they are designed to rescue does not mean that I do not know or care about poor people. In fact, growing up in a VERY poor Appalachian county I have seen first hand the power of hand outs when it comes to destroying people... repeatedly... tragically.
 
#110
#110
You said something about a missionary friend. I didn't see a point to mentioning it - that's what I was pointing out.
 
#111
#111
Another socialist mecca bites the dust.

Although America is in even worse shape than Greece,
Obama is offering to bail them out.

As far as I can discern the master plan is to crash
the whole world economy in order to usher in a
world currency and a draconian sort of authority
to replace the nation states that now exist.

The new order is to be administered by well
established elites in a feudalistic manner.


155nei0.gif
 
#112
#112
America is in worse shape than Greece? How do you figure?

Greece was a "Mecca?" Link?

I swear, you just SAY stuff.
 
#114
#114
I have visited Greece half a dozen times since the early 70s.

In the 70s, it was dirt cheap with wonderful beaches. As in southern Europe, there was what appeared to be a comfortable poverty. At all times of the day and night the Greeks were sitting around tavernas smoking and drinking coffee, ouzo and Retsina. Tourism made up a large part of the economy with tourists provided by the USA and northern Europe. There were riots against the generals or colonels who taken over in a coup.

Ever since Greece joined the Eurozone, prices as in southern Europe have gone through the roof. The Greeks still sit around tavernas 24/7 smoking and drinking but now, compliments of a strong Germany propping up the Euro, they collect fat government pensions starting age 50. The servers and hotel maids now are from eastern Europe. If someone told me I would have to go back to work, I'd be pissed to too!
 
#115
#115
The debate over Greece is a perfect relief of the bourgeois mind.

As soon as the Greeks declare bankruptcy, we will find out exactly how specious the bourgeois arguments were / are regarding this debate. They will, of course, take every opportunity to exact their revenge whenever they can, but my feeling is they will come crawling to restructure the loans as soon as they look serious about leaving the Euro. They (the European bourgeois) are just trying to keep as much fat as they can.

As far as health care, it's been over for a long time.

Every single payer system offers:

Better health outcomes
at lower cost
with less rationing

than the US system. I will await an example where this is not true.

Health care is not a market. I didn't say it first, the father of general equilibrium theory, Kenneth Arrow, did.
 
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#116
#116
utgibbs said:
The debate over Greece is a perfect relief of the bourgeois mind.

As soon as the Greeks declare bankruptcy, we will find out exactly how specious the bourgeois arguments were / are regarding this debate. They will, of course, take every opportunity to exact their revenge whenever they can, but my feeling is they will come crawling to restructure the loans as soon as they look serious about leaving the Euro. They (the European bourgeois) are just trying to keep as much fat as they can.

As far as health care, it's been over for a long time.

Every single payer system offers:

Better health outcomes
at lower cost
with less rationing

than the US system. I will await an example where this is not true.

Health care is not a market. I didn't say it first, the father of general equilibrium theory, Kenneth Arrow, did.
Click to expand...

I thought we were talking about the fact the Greeks borrowed way more than they can ever pay back and in some cases frauduantly did so. They produce little for export, depend heavily on tourism and have existed since the advent of the Euro on the "kindness of strangers". Their social network is a house of cards existing because the Germans and northern Europeans would allow them to borrow money using their credit. More expensive healthcare is just one of the social services the Greeks will have to figure out how to pay for.
 
#118
#118
Redstater said:
I thought we were talking about the fact the Greeks borrowed way more than they can ever pay back and in some cases frauduantly did so. They produce little for export, depend heavily on tourism and have existed since the advent of the Euro on the "kindness of strangers". Their social network is a house of cards existing because the Germans and northern Europeans would allow them to borrow money using their credit. More expensive healthcare is just one of the social services the Greeks will have to figure out how to pay for.
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In Capitalism the LENDER is responsible for bad loans.

In Capitalism.

However, the last forty years has been all about socialism for the bourgeoisie.
 
#119
#119
utgibbs said:
Health care is not a market. I didn't say it first, the father of general equilibrium theory, Kenneth Arrow, did.
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For the 1000th time - he didn't say it wasn't a market. It is and always is whether it's single payer, single provider or free market. He said it has aspects of market failure.
 
#120
#120
utgibbs said:
In Capitalism the LENDER is responsible for bad loans.

In Capitalism.

However, the last forty years has been all about socialism for the bourgeoisie.
Click to expand...

Not sure where you're coming up with this crapola but in the Greeks' case, it was a joint effort. The Greeks pretended they were going to pay back the loans: The lenders pretended that the Greeks were good for it.
 
#121
#121
Redstater said:
Not sure where you're coming up with this crapola but in the Greeks' case, it was a joint effort. The Greeks pretended they were going to pay back the loans: The lenders pretended that the Greeks were good for it.
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That's the risk every lender assumes. It's up to the lender to give money to folks they feel strongly will pay it back.

"Securitization" was supposed to make these debt instruments fail-safe. Of course, we know now that is full bunk, as we have witnessed Capitalism completely collapse (any word on the close of QE2 yet?) - we are effectively a socialist system now for the financial sector.

As it turns out, ninety percent of the German public do not want to force austerity on the Greeks. Possibly because the Germans never paid reparations to the Greeks after WWII, and the Germans, I believe, have been the biggest debt squelchers of the 20th century.

Of course, we never paid the Greeks reparations for the Colonels either. Because we said it was the "best damn government since Pericles."
 
#122
#122
volinbham said:
For the 1000th time - he didn't say it wasn't a market. It is and always is whether it's single payer, single provider or free market. He said it has aspects of market failure.
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No, he said it was pretty dumb to consider it a market because it was replete with so much market failure.
 
#123
#123
utgibbs said:
As it turns out, ninety percent of the German public do not want to force austerity on the Greeks. Possibly because the Germans never paid reparations to the Greeks after WWII, and the Germans, I believe, have been the biggest debt squelchers of the 20th century.
Click to expand...

bet you can't back that up
 
#124
#124
Repetitive stupidity remains stupidity. Extra credit given for hardheadedness, but hasn't diminished the stupidity.
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