Hard nosed, intelligent, political discussion

I still have to ask, do you honestly believe what you are typing?

If Bush claims to be every thing you say he is, then why doesn't he abolish congress and make himself a "dictator", that is what Hitler did with the German Parliament.

Why bother with electoral process?

In case your social studies are a little rusty, the Electoral College is the body created by the Constitution that officially elects presidents. The votes you cast on Election Day are merely a guide, albeit a powerful one.

Just for counter argument, do you not recognize the presidencies of Rutherford B. Hayes and Benjamin Harrison because they won the electoral vote?

In 1876, Democrat Samuel Tilden received about 250,000 more popular votes than Republican Rutherford B. Hayes. But Hayes won the election, 185 electoral votes to Tilden's 184 after a special electoral commission looking into charges of fraud, awarded Hayes 19 disputed electoral votes.
In 1888, Democrat Grover Cleveland received 91,000 more popular votes than Republican Benjamin Harrison, but Harrison won in the Electoral College, 233-168.
 
You got me thinking about the Hitler and Bush correlation.

Adolf Hitler, as the new Chancellor of Germany, had no intention of abiding by the rules of democracy. He intended only to use those rules to legally establish himself as dictator as quickly as possible then begin the Nazi revolution.

Even before he was sworn in, he was at work to accomplish that goal by demanding new elections. While Hindenburg waited impatiently in another room, Hitler argued with conservative leader Hugenberg, who vehemently opposed the idea. Hitler's plan was to establish a majority of elected Nazis in the Reichstag which would become a rubber stamp, passing whatever laws he desired while making it all perfectly legal.

On his first day as chancellor, Hitler manipulated Hindenburg into dissolving the Reichstag and calling for the new elections he had wanted to be held on March 5, 1933.

That evening, Hitler attended a dinner with the German General Staff and told them Germany would re-arm as a first step toward regaining its former position in the world. He also gave them a strong hint of things to come by telling them there would be conquest of the lands to the east and ruthless Germanization of conquered territories.

Yeah, I can see it now. Bush and the Republican controlled Congress equals Chancellor Hilter and the Nazi controlled Reichstag.

Iraq equals German lebensraum of Austria and Poland.

Yes I see it!
 
i'm saying there are alot of comparisons. why would he abolish congress and make things bumpy for him he gets mostly what he wants out of them anyway.
 
i'm saying there are alot of comparisons. why would he abolish congress and make things bumpy for him he gets mostly what he wants out of them anyway.

Perhaps because he is a dictator, dictators usually do not believe in free elections, especially when their party could lose the majority of power.

Do you recognize the presidencies of Harrison and Hayes?
 
i see your from deleware ohio cool. i guess this makes you a bob taft lover too.

The above is a typical assumption and generalization on your part. Where is the validity in your statement? Figure a cheap shot would make you feel better? :air_kiss:

I think Bob Taft is one of the worse governors in the Nation. He is impractical and used a faulty campaign attack against Tim Haggan to get re-elected.

Since his re-election he has destroyed industry in Ohio because of faulty tax measures.

Oh, by the way, I am not from Ohio, nor claim it as my home.

Care to actually carry on a political debate or are you going to take more cheap shops? :gun: :cry:
*I love talking about the Hilter and Bush theory!* :air_kiss: :biggrin2: :D
 
i was a history major i know the presidents. i call him a dictator because of his methods of scaring the american people. we have elections here i know this, the electoral college doesn't work i know this too. his propoganda messages would be something hitler himself would be proud of.
 
You honestly believe every thing you are saying? :devilsmoke:

Bush used scare tactics to win elections and the American people could not recongize what he was doing?

Or is your assumption that Republicans are idiots and mindless wandering sheep?

Ok, what is the democratic platform? Fear of Republicans? :biggrin2:
 
his propoganda messages would be something hitler himself would be proud of.

Wouldn't that be Dr. Joseph Goebbels?

He was the Nazi propoganda machine.

"If you tell a lie long enough, it becomes the truth."
 
what was the only thing bush talked about to get re-elected. we will get blown up and be less safe if kerry is elected. he went back to his leadership during 9\11 and his conquest of iraq and how we are now safer. you couldn't even turn on the tv without hearing that crap. democrats arn't much better, but i have a better feeling of where they are coming from. they are mad still from clinton getting impeached, a black mark in history that should of never happened, done by the republican party. i BLAME the republican party for dividing the USA it hasn't been the same since. even starr said it was nothing more than a smear tactic for republicans to get the upperhand. so now i vote straight democrat when i'm at the poll's. i'm not saying democrats are any better but they haven't divided the US like the republicans and this president has. or alienated other countries. that is the reason i think there is a good chance the democrats will gain control of congress in the fall, people are finally opening up there eyes and seeing what is happening. i also think that is why W will go down in the poll's and also go down as one of the worst presidents in US history. the taft thing wasn't a cheap shot, i just thought if you were going to defend W till the death maybe you felt the same about all republicans.
 
I am in no way comparing bush to hitler but I think what smokedog3 is saying is that the continual use of the threat of another terrorist attack is the fear that Rove chose to drive home their points. I don't think anyone will dispute that.

I wouldn't call Bush a dictator - he merely does what the party demands, they control the votes and by controlling the votes they get stuff pushed through.

As far as the electoral college goes - I understand its purpse - however it doesn't count the votes properly - imho - for example if you look at the state of TN from the last election there were very few blue counties, now did those votes count - technically yes - but the electoral college doesn't split the votes to account for that difference - its all or nothing right??
 
Smokedog you are great, I would love to sit down with you in person and talk to you.

We have to do it, Bush Admin vs. Hitler's Admin

President Bush
Fuhrer Hilter

Dick Cheney
Herman Gering

Dr. Bill Frizt
Dr. Joseph Goebbels

Karl Rove
Heinrich Himmler

I hope that you do not take to my light hearted jabs. If I have posted any thing offensive or hurtful, I apologize. I just find debating this stuff really really fun! :huggy:
 
thank you volracerx. yes the electoral college is all or nothing. it has needed to be changed for 100 years and still needs to be changed.
 
I am in now way comparing bush to hitler but I think what smokedog3 is saying is that the continual use of the threat of another terrorist attakc is the fear that Rove chose to drive home their points. I don't think anyone will dispute that.

You honestly think that is the central concern with the American voter. The fear of anothe attack is why the Republicans keep winning elections?

Perhaps I am naive, but I still believe in Nixon's "silent majority". Those who only care about the well being of the country as a whole. Forgetting political difference, moral differences, etc.... What is good for the country!

That is why I think Republicans continue to win elections, not the threat of terrorism. That seems to be a cheap cop out by democrats.

Give your American brothers and sisters more credit than just voting on fear.

Besides, what would Republicans have to hear? We have all the guns! :gun:

 
Actually Bush used both terrorism and gay marriage in the past election. People were worried about terrorism, but gay marriage scared the $%^# out of them.

Karl Rove might be the anti-christ, but his strategies are out of this world. How many times did we hear about gay marriage after the election? It just fizzled out after it served it purpose and helped get Bush re-elected.

And to answer your question OrangeEmpire...
Bush used scare tactics to win elections and the American people could not recongize what he was doing?

Obviously not.
 
no orange empire nothing personal just good debating. i have alot of these debates with my friends who some are republicans. we usually break out the scotch and cigars and chat for hours. it is a good way to pass time till the game comes on. :biggrin2:
 
There are three important benefits produced by the current electoral college system:

(1) Because a candidate must win at least 270 electoral votes from across the nation, a candidate cannot become president without a significant widespread voter base. In fact, as has happened in three previous elections, the distribution of voter support may actually take precedence over the quantity of voter support. Therefore, the electoral college ensures a broad national consensus for a candidate that subsequently will allow him to govern once he takes office.

(2) Since the electoral college operates on a State-by-State basis, this not only enhances the status of minorities by affording them a greater proportional influence within a smaller block of voters at the State level but it also ensures a geographically diverse population which makes regional domination, or domination of urban over suburban or rural areas, virtually impossible. In fact, since no one region of the country has 270 electoral votes, there is an incentive for a candidate to form coalitions of States and regions rather than to accentuate regional differences.

(3) The electoral college system prioritizes the most important factors in selecting a president. If a candidate receives a substantial majority of the popular vote, then that candidate is almost certain to receive enough electoral votes to be president. However, if the popular vote is extremely close, then the candidate with the best distribution of popular votes will be elected. And if the country is so divided that no one candidate obtains an absolute majority of electoral votes, then the U. S. House of Representatives the body closest to the people and which must face them in every election will then choose the president.

What if the two major candidates were separated by a popular margin of less than one percent. Therefore, if a candidate needed to pick up an additional one percent in a national recount, there is no reason to confine the recount solely to the closely contested States; in fact, it would make sense to recount even the landslide States.

While opponents of the electoral college system assert that the prolonged recount in Florida would have been avoided if there had been a direct popular election of the president, the reality is that without the electoral college system, recounts likely would have increased.

Therefore, if Bush needed only 100,000 votes to take the popular lead, he could demand a recount in New York, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Washington, D. C., Massachusetts, etc. States he lost by wide margins not because he needed to win those States but because he might gain more votes to add to his national total. In fact, he could even demand a recount of the States that he won handily States like Texas, Georgia, Virginia, Alabama, etc. simply to accumulate additional voters.

Contrary, then, to what many currently assert, without the electoral college system, in a close election the possibility of recounts and of recounts in numbers of States, would likely increase rather than decrease.



 
(OrangeEmpire @ Mar 31 said:
You honestly think that is the central concern with the American voter. The fear of anothe attack is why the Republicans keep winning elections?

Perhaps I am naive, but I still believe in Nixon's "silent majority". Those who only care about the well being of the country as a whole. Forgetting political difference, moral differences, etc.... What is good for the country!

That is why I think Republicans continue to win elections, not the threat of terrorism. That seems to be a cheap cop out by democrats.

Give your American brothers and sisters more credit than just voting on fear.

Besides, what would Republicans have to hear? We have all the guns! :gun:

People are not going to choose one side out of fear - but that fear is used to divert from REAL threats to the american people such as China, Our exponentially growing deficit, healthcare, social security, welfare and the list goes on. Every time I talk to my rep. friends they all fall back on this moral high ground defense; which I can understand - what is important to one is not important to all; my question is what happend to being qualified for the job in the first place. Republicans continue to win elections b/c the democtratic party is in shambles - the Rove machine has done a great job of that. In the last election the Dem Party really started to make up a lot of ground when they finally started to play hardball - basically when James Carvil (sp?) got involved. I do think that after the past few years that the "swing" voters will be more apt to lean away from the rep party due to what has happened lately.

As far as fear goes - since the election - can you remember them changing the terror threat warning???
 
(Orangewhiteblood @ Mar 31 said:
Actually Bush used both terrorism and gay marriage in the past election. People were worried about terrorism, but gay marriage scared the $%^# out of them.

Karl Rove might be the anti-christ, but his strategies are out of this world. How many times did we hear about gay marriage after the election? It just fizzled out after it served it purpose and helped get Bush re-elected.

And to answer your question OrangeEmpire...
Obviously not.

Don't make me bore you to tears again with another debate. :biggrin2:
 
It just fizzled out after it served it purpose and helped get Bush re-elected.

Democrats do not key to the issues of their base?

The only difference is that the democratic based is spread out across a wide spectrum, where the Republican base is more centralized and compartmented.

Obviously not.

It is sad that you believe that.

Politics have ruined this countries comradery.
 
OE - I am not saying to do away with the EC process - I just think that it should represent the state equally - not all the states votes should go to the winner of that state. I am saying that in a cases where the state is split that those votes should be split proportionate to the amount of votes recieved - IE if there are 3 votes available that a candidat that achieves 33% of the votes in that state will recieve one vote - not 0 votes.
 
(OrangeEmpire @ Mar 31 said:
I still have to ask, do you honestly believe what you are typing?

If Bush claims to be every thing you say he is, then why doesn't he abolish congress and make himself a "dictator", that is what Hitler did with the German Parliament.

Why bother with electoral process?

In case your social studies are a little rusty, the Electoral College is the body created by the Constitution that officially elects presidents. The votes you cast on Election Day are merely a guide, albeit a powerful one.

Just for counter argument, do you not recognize the presidencies of Rutherford B. Hayes and Benjamin Harrison because they won the electoral vote?
And you and so many other people believe we live in a democracy i love how that word keeps getting used for Iraq and yet technically we don't even live in a democracy.
:dunno:
 

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