Hard nosed, intelligent, political discussion

[OWB]

By the way, if you do move, don't come back to the U.S. when you get sick, I hear their healthcare system is the best.

Is that sarcasm? Because I think that Canada definitely has an edge on us when it comes to healthcare and I'm not trying to pin that on Bush...I think it's been a problem for quite some time now.

 

[smokedog#3]

yeh i heard there health care sucks to, but my wife is a nurse and i figure she can tell me if the doctor is going to kill me. communism, they don't have a dictator like bush, socialist take a look at the US you have to be kidding right. i've always wanted to go to vancouver or calgary people always say it is nice and clean. i've been to toronto on buisness it was great i went back on vacation. plus i'm pretty sure there not going to start any wars just to make a profit either. besides in 5 years we are going to be mexico anyway. i live is sevierville and i go shopping and half the customers don't speak english.

 

[GAVol]

Is that sarcasm? Because I think that Canada definitely has an edge on us when it comes to healthcare and I'm not trying to pin that on Bush...I think it's been a problem for quite some time now.

:drive2: Now there's a can of worms.

 

[smokedog#3]

OWB i think he was saying that the doctors are not very good.

 

[volinasheville]

true pretty soon our national currency will have a big fat chinese guy on it. :gun:

I think it was the previous administration that sold nuclear secrets to the Chinese. Is this statement your prediction that Hillary will win and sell them everything Bill didn't?

 

[GAVol]

OWB i think he was saying that the doctors are not very good.

No . . . He's saying that socialized medicine is not very good.

 

[OWB]

Every time my father goes to get chemotherapy, it costs about 17,000 dollars a visit. That doesn't include the bloodwork, doctors visits, MRI, PET and CT scans along with the medicines to offset the effects of the chemo itself. Sure, his insurance picks up most of the bill, but they don't want to. We have had to fight with them over most of it. The price of Chemo drugs is getting so out of hand that eventually, the insurance companies aren't going to cover them.

I think that one of our biggest problems is that there is more profit in the cure than the prevention.

 

[GAVol]

It's all the attorneys' fault.

 

[OWB]

It's all the attorneys' fault.

Don't get me started on lawyers... :biggrin2:

By the way, did you hear about W's plan to fight the bird flu? He's going to bomb the Canary Islands.
:hi: Thank you thank you, I'll be here all night.

 

[smokedog#3]

like i said china is going to own us in 5 years anyway after W sells us to them so we won't have to worry about nukes anymore they will have them all.

 

[OWB]

These are stats from from the early 90's and it's said that things have gotten worse since then...I just can't find the stats on it.

Health Care Expenditures

United States 13.4%
Canada 10.0
Finland 9.1
Sweden 8.6
Germany 8.4
Netherlands 8.4
Norway 7.6
Japan 6.8
United Kingdom 6.6
Denmark 6.5

Doctors' incomes:

United States $132,300
Germany 91,244
Denmark 50,585
Finland 42,943
Norway 35,356
Sweden 25,768

Percent of population covered by public health care:

ALL NATIONS 100% (except below)
France and Austria 99
Switzerland, Spain and Belgium 98
Germany 92
Netherlands 77
United States 40

Average paid maternity leave (as of 1991; this changed with Clinton's signing of the 1993 Family and Medical Leave Act):

Sweden 32 weeks
France 28
United Kingdom 18
Norway 18
Denmark 18
Japan 14
Germany 14
Netherlands 12
United States 0

Life Expectancy (years):

Men Women
Japan 76.2 82.5
France 72.9 81.3
Switzerland 74.1 81.3
Netherlands 73.7 80.5
Sweden 74.2 80.4
Canada 73.4 80.3
Norway 73.1 79.7
Germany 72.6 79.2
Finland 70.7 78.8
United States 71.6 78.6
United Kingdom 72.7 78.2
Denmark 72.2 77.9

Infant Mortality Rate (per 1,000 live births):

United States 10.4
United Kingdom 9.4
Germany 8.5
Denmark 8.1
Canada 7.9
Norway 7.9
Netherlands 7.8
Switzerland 6.8
Finland 5.9
Sweden 5.9

Death rate of 1-to-4 year olds (per community of 200,000 per year):


United States 101.5
Japan 92.2
Norway 90.2
Denmark 85.1
France 84.9
United Kingdom 82.2
Canada 82.1
Netherlands 80.3
Germany 77.6
Switzerland 72.5
Sweden 64.7

Death rate of 15-to-24 year olds (per community of 200,000 per year):

United States 203
Switzerland 175
Canada 161
France 156
Finland 154
Norway 128
Germany 122
Denmark 120
United Kingdom 114
Sweden 109
Japan 96

Premature Death

United States 5.8 years
Denmark 4.9
Finland 4.8
Canada 4.5
Germany 4.5
United Kingdom 4.4
Norway 4.3
Switzerland 4.1
Netherlands 4.0
Sweden 3.8

Percent of people with normal body mass:

Men Women
Germany 53% 37
Finland 51 37
United Kingdom 46 38
Canada 52 29
Switzerland 49 30
France 44 30

Percent of people who believe their health care system needs fundamental change:

United States 60%
Sweden 58
United Kingdom 52
Japan 47
Netherlands 46
France 42
Canada 38
Denmark 44 25
United States 47 22
Sweden 44 25
Japan 3.3
Netherlands 90
Finland 53.3

If anyone has some up to date stats, I would love to see it.

 

[GAVol]

like i said china is going to own us in 5 years anyway after W sells us to them so we won't have to worry about nukes anymore they will have them all.

Are you pulling a string that makes you say random things that make no sense?

 

[OWB]

Are you pulling a string that makes you say random things that make no sense?

There's actually a Bush doll that really does that.

 

[smokedog#3]

how else do you explain all of the money we are barrowing and we will never be able to pay back. sooner or later they are going to want something. explain something else to me who has nuclear secrets anymore. almost everybody has nuclear weapons, by the time this administration is out of office north korea and iran will have long range nukes, who is making no sense :banghead:

 

[volinasheville]

how else do you explain all of the money we are barrowing and we will never be able to pay back. sooner or later they are going to want something. explain something else to me who has nuclear secrets anymore. almost everybody has nuclear weapons, by the time this administration is out of office north korea and iran will have long range nukes, who is making no sense :banghead:

What would your proposed solution in N Korea and Iran be?

 

[Volunteer]

No, I'm not kidding about socialized Healthcare. If you want to pull up stats OWB, how about pulling up real life situations, bother to click on the links and take a look:

Dead Meat

Free Medicine

“Canadian Medicare is broke. Its underlying values are legislated mediocrity.
The shortage of resources is a crisis of care. Over $1 billion of American health
care is purchased by Canadians who cross the border because they don’t trust
the system here.
Regarding Aboriginal health care there is a third world standard of care because
of disastrous government policies.
We have inadequate nursing homes.
There are 6-month waiting lists for cardiac care in British Columbia- It should
be 3 days. Consequently, people are dying."
~ Dr. Granger Avery, Former President of British Columbia Medical Association

Do you know that a Canadian citizen who has enough money to pay for his/her own healthcare, let's just say a $100,000 procedure, can be arrested as well as the doctor for performing said procedure????? Why would it be any different if socialized healthcare was adopted in the U.S.?

I can go on and on and on.

Listen, for you guys that believe that everything should come from government, take a look at the things around you. Go to the DMV, has anyone every had a positive experience there? Drive through Knoxville near West Hills Mall, the government has been working on the same stretch of road for over ten years. How many government workers to you see standing around? Why do you think this would be any different with healthcare?

When there is NO competition, there is NO need to improve.

Look it up people, don't just follow party lines on this one.

 

[GAVol]

Not to mention that for the government to take over healthcare would mean co-opting almost 20% of the nation's economy into a governement program. :huh:

 

[Volunteer]

OWB, I can't relate to your father and I am sorry to hear of the situation. I have in the past few weeks experienced our health care system and the benefits of health insurance that I paid for, I will still be out several thousand dollars, but I needed healthcare quickly. I can't imagine having to be in pain as I was for 6 months waiting for a surgery I needed immediately. In fact, the doctor said that prolonged nerve damage would have occurred had I not fixed the herniated disc in my neck. I say no thanks to Socialized healthcare.

 

[OWB]

Listen, for you guys that believe that everything should come from government, take a look at the things around you. Go to the DMV, has anyone every had a positive experience there?

I don't think that everything should be paid for by the government. I just think the price of some drugs need to come down. $17,000 a visit for a 7 - 9 month chemotherapy treatment is ridiculous to me.

Thanks for the links..

 

[jakez4ut]

i'm not big on political discussion. as far as my political beliefs, i'm a lean to the right.

but as to the medical situation now a days....here's what i know:
doctor visits cost more for me now than they ever have.
My insurance plan does not allow for my choice of doctor if he/she is not on thier insurance network, unless i choose to pay a higher rate.
Prescription medecine, even with co pays, are more expensive now than they ever have been for me.
My prescription plan only allows a certain allotment of prescribed migrane medecine for my wife. So when the allotment is up, if she wants more for her headaches, it's 100% out of pocket for us. Which is the case since her headaches are not concerned with how much medecine our plan allows us to purchase each year.

and why? My company has to make decisions on a cost basis with as many employees as we have. so this is what we get.

Dont' get me wrong, i'm glad i have the coverage, it has been a benefit in other areas before, but on the day to day stuff we have to deal with, it's very frustrating, because part of the increase in cost of drugs, is now, we as the consumer, are paying for commercials during the Super Bowl. It's really a great thing now that the average American can now go to his/her doctor and ask for prescriptions to certain drugs. I'm sure the doctors are loving it, especially if they are getting the kick backs some of them get for "pushing" some of the name brand drugs.(edit: i don't mean to say that ALL doctors get kick backs, but i do know some pharmaceutical reps, and it does happen)

At some point, you almost expect to go to the doctor's office and he'll/she'll be sponsored by one or more of these drugs.......the white coat will soon look like a stock car with different drug patches all over it....and we'll pay for that too......

(OK, i may have gone overboard, but you get the idea....)

 

[OWB]

It's really a great thing now that the average American can now go to his/her doctor and ask for prescriptions to certain drugs. I'm sure the doctors are loving it, especially if they are getting the kick backs some of them get for "pushing" some of the name brand drugs.(edit: i don't mean to say that ALL doctors get kick backs, but i do know some pharmaceutical reps, and it does happen)

At some point, you almost expect to go to the doctor's office and he'll/she'll be sponsored by one or more of these drugs.......the white coat will soon look like a stock car with different drug patches all over it....and we'll pay for that too......

(OK, i may have gone overboard, but you get the idea....)

That's not overboard, that's just a fact...Some docs do get kickbacks..

 

[WA_Vol]

the best arguements i have heard on health care is, the fed needs to come in and establish salaries for doctors, some kind of cost controls. if your an xxx specialist you make this per a doctors visit, if your a general practioner you make xxx per a visit, etc.

i think its a pretty sad commentary that when a canadian gets sick in this country, they immediately fly back to their country for treatment, because they cant afford treatment here.

they need to screen patients in the emergency room too, and stop treating illegals near the border who basically are receiving free health care.

my 2 cents.

 

[WA_Vol]

These are stats from from the early 90's and it's said that things have gotten worse since then...I just can't find the stats on it.

Health Care Expenditures

United States 13.4%
Canada 10.0
Finland 9.1
Sweden 8.6
Germany 8.4
Netherlands 8.4
Norway 7.6
Japan 6.8
United Kingdom 6.6
Denmark 6.5

Doctors' incomes:

United States $132,300
Germany 91,244
Denmark 50,585
Finland 42,943
Norway 35,356
Sweden 25,768

Percent of population covered by public health care:

ALL NATIONS 100% (except below)
France and Austria 99
Switzerland, Spain and Belgium 98
Germany 92
Netherlands 77
United States 40

Average paid maternity leave (as of 1991; this changed with Clinton's signing of the 1993 Family and Medical Leave Act):

Sweden 32 weeks
France 28
United Kingdom 18
Norway 18
Denmark 18
Japan 14
Germany 14
Netherlands 12
United States 0

Life Expectancy (years):

Men Women
Japan 76.2 82.5
France 72.9 81.3
Switzerland 74.1 81.3
Netherlands 73.7 80.5
Sweden 74.2 80.4
Canada 73.4 80.3
Norway 73.1 79.7
Germany 72.6 79.2
Finland 70.7 78.8
United States 71.6 78.6
United Kingdom 72.7 78.2
Denmark 72.2 77.9

Infant Mortality Rate (per 1,000 live births):

United States 10.4
United Kingdom 9.4
Germany 8.5
Denmark 8.1
Canada 7.9
Norway 7.9
Netherlands 7.8
Switzerland 6.8
Finland 5.9
Sweden 5.9

Death rate of 1-to-4 year olds (per community of 200,000 per year):
United States 101.5
Japan 92.2
Norway 90.2
Denmark 85.1
France 84.9
United Kingdom 82.2
Canada 82.1
Netherlands 80.3
Germany 77.6
Switzerland 72.5
Sweden 64.7

Death rate of 15-to-24 year olds (per community of 200,000 per year):

United States 203
Switzerland 175
Canada 161
France 156
Finland 154
Norway 128
Germany 122
Denmark 120
United Kingdom 114
Sweden 109
Japan 96

Premature Death

United States 5.8 years
Denmark 4.9
Finland 4.8
Canada 4.5
Germany 4.5
United Kingdom 4.4
Norway 4.3
Switzerland 4.1
Netherlands 4.0
Sweden 3.8

Percent of people with normal body mass:

Men Women
Germany 53% 37
Finland 51 37
United Kingdom 46 38
Canada 52 29
Switzerland 49 30
France 44 30

Percent of people who believe their health care system needs fundamental change:

United States 60%
Sweden 58
United Kingdom 52
Japan 47
Netherlands 46
France 42
Canada 38
Denmark 44 25
United States 47 22
Sweden 44 25
Japan 3.3
Netherlands 90
Finland 53.3

If anyone has some up to date stats, I would love to see it.

these are good stats to know. where did you find these?

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Very good discussion about socialized medicine. One can argue that we already have socialized medicine, in a small form, because your health care provider dictates where you can go and what type of treatment you are allowed to have under their coverage.

I want to focus on the practical example of socialized medicine already in place in the United States, the example to which I refer is the complex of hospitals managed by the Veterans Administration. A study New England Journal of Medicinepublished in the New England Journal of Medicine in 2003 comparing veterans' hospitals with fee-for-service health care funded by Medicare.

*Note from the Journal: "Patients are more likely to be in poor health; to have a low level of education, disability, or a low income; to be black; and to have higher rates of psychiatric illness. These characteristics are associated with receiving poorer quality care."

Surveys by the National Committee for Quality Assurance and other organizations, have reached the same conclusion. The superiority of VA hospitals is so obvious that by now it ought to be common knowledge. But it isn't, because an insane political consensus that firmly opposes turning health care over to the government because the government is presumed incapable of doing anything well doesn't want to hear that government hospitals are outperforming private hospitals.

There are many reasons why this is so. One reason, is that people don't shuffle in and out of the VA system the way they shuffle in and out of private health care plans, either because they change jobs or because their employer decides to do business with a different insurance company. Another reason is that the doctors are salaried, and therefore lack any conceivable financial interest in subjecting a patient to avoidable medical procedures. But the main reason the VA hospitals are doing especially well these days is that they have adopted the same modern information technologies that have been embraced by every other sector of the economy.

Even Bush has recognized,WhiteHouse.gov that "the VA has got an advantage because the all the administrators work for the same outfit, the same organization."

This should lead to a great counter point.......

 

[VOLracerx]

Personally , I feel that the problem starts with pharm. companies. Their marketing strategies and outrageous expenditures to bring drugs to market are crazty; especially if you listen to the side effects of the drugs.

Tort reform will not make healthcare more affordable either, the amount of money awarded from lawsuits represent less than 2% of the industries total profits.

The VA has a good system but even they can't keep up with the amount of patients that they have, most don't even get coveredby the VA hospitals - it can take anywhere from 8-10 months just to get into a VA hospital. I do know that they pay really well and have great benefits!!!