Heaven or Hell

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The First Creation Story; Genesis 1:1 to 2:3: Historical Christianity taught that the entire Pentateuch -- the five books from Genesis to Deuteronomy was written by Moses. Most Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Christians continue to follow this belief. Most liberal and mainline theologians and religious skeptics accept the Documentary Hypothesis: that the Pentateuch was written by a number of authors from four different traditions, and who imported some material from nearby Pagan sources. The Hypothesis asserts that the author of the creation story seen in the first verses of the Bible was an anonymous 6th Century BCE writer or group of writers of the priestly tradition (often referred to as "P").
Creation is described in Genesis 1:1 to 2:3 as occurring in six "days":

Day 1: creation of light and its separation from darkness.
Day 2: separation of the sky and oceans.
Day 3: separation of land from the oceans; spreading of plants and grass and trees across the land.
Day 4: Creation of the sun, moon, and stars.
Day 5: Creation of sea animals and birds.
Day 6: Creation of the land animals. Creation of humanity, "someone like ourselves" (Living Bible).
Day 7: God rested. Followers of the Documentary Hypothesis believe this to have been a later addition, 4 placed there to give theological justification for the Sabbath (Saturday as a day of rest).

This sequence does contain some problems.

Light was listed as being created on day 1, but its source (the sun and stars) did not appear until day 4. Most creation scientists, who generally support the literal interpretation of this creation story, have a solution to this puzzle. Many say that light initially came from God, before he created the sun and stars.

Birds were said to be created before other land animals. Paleontologists, who almost universally support the theory of evolution, point out that the fossil record shows the opposite order. Creation scientists discount this belief. Most regard the rock layers containing the fossil record as having been laid down during the flood of Noah; thus, the fossils do not represent the evolution of the species of animals and birds.

The most controversial debate over this creation story relates to its time span. Genesis 1 and 2 explain how Creation of Earth's life forms, the Earth itself, and the rest of the universe took six days. Supporters of the theory of evolution find evidence for a universe that has been evolving for about 14 billion years.

The Second Creation Story; Genesis 2:4 to 2:25: This is a different description of the creation of earth's life forms. Most mainline and liberal biblical researchers attribute this section to "J," a writer who lived in the 9th century BCE (some say 10th century; others say after the Babylonian exile). Again, religious conservatives trace the authorship to Moses, and believe that this is a simple restatement of the earlier creation story. The author of Genesis 2 writes that at first, there were no plants or grain present, because God had not yet sent rain.

God made Adam out of earth; this is a belief common to many early Pagan religions in the Middle East.

God created plants and herbs, Adam, the Garden of Eden, trees, birds and animals

God performed the first surgical operation, removing a rib from Adam and transforming it into the first woman, Eve.

Conflicts between the creation stories: There are some apparent inconsistencies between the first and second creation accounts: There may be a conflict over the number of days over which creation happened. Genesis 1:3 and subsequent verses say that God created the universe in six days.
In Genesis 2:4, some translations, including the King James Version, imply that it took one day.

More details:

In the first account, God created fruit trees before Adam and Eve; in the second account, God created Adam, then the fruit trees, then Eve.
In the first account, God created animals before Adam and Eve; in the second account, God created Adam. then the animals, then Eve.
Genesis 1:20 describes how God had "the waters bring forth ...fowl" ; in Genesis 2:19, God formed them "out of the ground".
In the first account, God created the fish on the 5th day; in the second account, the fish of the sea were not created at all.

Religious conservatives feel that they they have harmonized these apparent inconsistencies.

Exodus 20:11 Creation is described as taking six days.
Exodus 31:17 God made the heavens and earth in six days.

Job 38:4 to 38:7 The creation of the earth is described as occurring on a single morning "when the morning stars sang together."

Creation battle: Many ancient eastern Mediterranean religions believed that the creation of the world was the end result of a momentous battle between a deity (typically a storm god) with chaos (typically symbolized by water). Some biblical scholars believe that traces of this belief can be seen in Psalms 74:12-17 and Psalms 89:9-13. Elements of this, with the violence removed, may also be seen in Genesis 1:1 to 2:3.

Psalms 19:4 This describes how God placed a tabernacle (tent) in the heavens for the sun. Presumably, this is where the sun was believed to rest during the hours of night. (The writers of the Bible assumed that the earth was flat, enclosed by a rigid dome a few thousand feet upwards from the surface of the earth. The sun and stars were believed to have been pushed across the underside surface of heaven).

Psalms 104:2 to 104:3 This tells how God stretched out the heavens like a curtain and laid the beams of his chambers in the waters (seas).

Psalms 104:5 This discusses how God laid the earth firmly on its foundations so that it could not be moved. Biblical writers believed that the earth was fixed and unmovable. The stars, planets, moon and sun moved across the underside of the rigid dome, above which was heaven. Quite a few early scientists were executed by the Church because they taught that the earth moved around the sun, in apparent conflict with this biblical passage.

Proverbs 8:22 to 8:32 This describes how God first created Wisdom. Wisdom is personified as a delightful female companion of God who existed before the earth was created. She describes being present during creation, which took an indeterminate time.
 
(smoke_em06 @ Jul 24 said:
Maybe you should tell me about his second creation story. I am fairly certain that there is just one. But I'm sure that you will try and convince me of it.

Maybe you should actually read that Bible you put all of your faith into.

First story of creation, Genesis 1:1-31
Second story of creation, Genesis 2:4-25
 
(therealUT @ Jul 24 said:
Maybe you should actually read that Bible you put all of your faith into.

First story of creation, Genesis 1:1-31
Second story of creation, Genesis 2:4-25
I'm sure I will.
 
Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. - George Carlin
 
(Orangewhiteblood @ Jul 24 said:
Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. - George Carlin
Thats a new one on me. Thats pretty funny.
 
(MyBloodRunnethOrange @ Jul 24 said:
Do you believe that man has ever seen God?

I have seen him....







...and his name is Philip Fulmer! :biggrin2:
 
(smoke_em06 @ Jul 24 said:
Yes I do. God sent himself to this earth through the virgin birth.
that's not what I'm tyalking about and you know it. Are you able to answer the question without dodging? Has anyone ever seen God in his preincarnate form ?
 
(MyBloodRunnethOrange @ Jul 24 said:
And back on the subject of hell, please explain to me why it is exactly that I deserve to be tortured for all eternity.
We all deserve to go to hell. The bible that we have all sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. However, if you accept his sacrifice and are born again, then you will go to heaven.
 
(MyBloodRunnethOrange @ Jul 24 said:
that's not what I'm tyalking about and you know it. Are you able to answer the question without dodging? Has anyone ever seen God in his preincarnate form ?
I haven't. Have you?
 
(smoke_em06 @ Jul 24 said:
We all deserve to go to hell. The bible that we have all sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. However, if you accept his sacrifice and are born again, then you will go to heaven.
Why do we all deserve to go to hell? Think about it for a minute. You tell your youngest kid to stay out of the cookies till after dinner. Thirty minutes later, you catch him in the cookies. What are you going to do about it? Naturally you're going to douse him in gasoline and set him on fire, right? Of course, he can get out of it if he's willing to let his older brother take the punishment in his place. In either case the punishment dosen't fit the offense, just like torturing someone in a lake of fire is a bit extreme don't ya think for minor offenses like telling a little white lie, or getting drunk with your buds?
 
(smoke_em06 @ Jul 24 said:
I haven't. Have you?
OK, you don't want to play. I don't blame you I don't guess, so I'll spell it out for you. According to the inerrant, infallable Word of God, no man has ever seen God

No one has seen God at any time, The Only Begotton Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (John 1:18 NKJV)

So no one has ever seen God. :question: The writer must have forgotten about the elders of Israel :question:

Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank. (Exodus 24:9-11 NKJV)

So according to your statement that you believe everything that is in the bible, you believe that no one has ever seen God, yet at the same time, you also believe that Moses and seventy of the elders of Israel DID in fact see God, which is a logical impossibility.
 
Smokem 06 has represented the Bible and Christianity better than anyone on this board.

Sure, if you're Catholic, then you will believe in Purgatory and praying "through" Saints.

Protestants just don't believe you can pray "through" other humans.

Why would any humans have any more significance in this world than any other humans?

And if you don't believe in Jesus, that's fine.

But if you do believe, you better not just believe on Sundays.
 
I used to be just like Smokem 06, and for some reason that I can't quite pinpoint I've swung to the opposite extreme. I know why I quit going to church, but I can't pinpoint exactly why I started to question everything I used to believe.
 
(MyBloodRunnethOrange @ Jul 24 said:
I used to be just like Smokem 06, and for some reason that I can't quite pinpoint I've swung to the opposite extreme. I know why I quit going to church, but I can't pinpoint exactly why I started to question everything I used to believe.



I question things every day. How did people live to be 600 years old? Why did God tell Noah to build an Ark, and that there was a flood coming to destroy every living human (men, children, babies) just because they were sinners, and Noah and his few were the only ones that were going to survive?


Why did God kill babies?


Why did so many men have sex with their sisters, mothers, daughters, cousins, etc?


Why do we have to "fear" God and believe in him?

The whole point in all of this and any of this is to get to Heaven.

Do you know anyone's who ever been there?

It all comes down to "faith"

I'm not going to tell you whether or not I'm a Christian, but I do know that Heaven is the only reason to believe there's a God.




 
I once heard a great quote about Christians and "going to church".

If I go out and sit in my garage, that doesn't make me a car. Likewise, if I go sit in a church it doesn't "make me a Christian."

As for this thread, it saddens me.

Both sides are being childish and completely doing the opposite of what they type when they explain what type of behavior will get you into heaven.

One side is replying with childish smiles and comments, and the other is asking questions that only serve the purpose to try to run down the other, and anyone that believes those things.

This thread offends me, and before I'm told to "not read it", I think that it's a shame that it has gotton to the point that I shouldn't read it. I'm also betting I'm not the only one offended.

Boooo. :(
 
(MyBloodRunnethOrange @ Jul 24 said:
I used to be just like Smokem 06, and for some reason that I can't quite pinpoint I've swung to the opposite extreme. I know why I quit going to church, but I can't pinpoint exactly why I started to question everything I used to believe.

Too much Discovery Channel will do that to you.
 
(OrangeSquare @ Jul 24 said:
This thread offends me, and before I'm told to "not read it", I think that it's a shame that it has gotton to the point that I shouldn't read it. I'm also betting I'm not the only one offended.

Can I say don't read it now?
 
I think the tone of this thread has been remarkably civil given the subject matter.
 
Do you think God writes down everything we do in a notebook? Think he has a sweet computer setup that he uses? Maybe Tivo or DVR? Whatever it is, it has to be big to keep up with millions and millions of people.
 

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