here is a little history on the abortion doctor.

#26
#26
allvol123 said:
Why is it tough? If you believe it is life, then the choice should be obvious.

If you don't believe it is life, then the choice shouldn't be tough at all.

I guess deciding whether you think it is life or not, could be tough.
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personally i believe any doctor that does late term abortions is a murderer. that doesn't mean they should die of course, just that it definetly should be banned. i didn't used to feel this way, but after seeing lots of friends have kids and see the ultrasounds and stuff i can't imagine doing that to a child.
 
#27
#27
droski said:
personally i believe any doctor that does late term abortions is a murderer. that doesn't mean they should die of course, just that it definetly should be banned. i didn't used to feel this way, but after seeing lots of friends have kids and see the ultrasounds and stuff i can't imagine doing that to a child.
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I can agree with all of that.
 
#28
#28
While I would not personally want a girlfriend/wife to have an abortion, that's not the issue. The issue is the rule of law.

A person who undertakes a criminal act can often find some moral justification for it. The fact that a number of people share the sentiment is not what makes him right or wrong.

For example, this man believes that abortion is murder. A large number of people agree with this man that abortion is murder. If that becomes the "authorzation," if you will, for his asserting his moral compass as a basis for ignoring the law, then we are in big trouble.

Change the law. Don't just ignore it when you think its wrong.
 
#31
#31
lawgator1 said:
No, but there's an air of minimizing the fact that he did because the victim wasn't politically sympathetic.
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Other than maybe one person I have seen nothing like this in this debate.
 
#32
#32
KB5252 said:
Other than maybe one person I have seen nothing like this in this debate.
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I agree. If anything, the consensus has been that murder is murder, which extends to the killer for sure, whether one believes it extends to the victim as well or not.
 
#33
#33
lawgator1 said:
No, but there's an air of minimizing the fact that he did because the victim wasn't politically sympathetic.
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No there isn't. But of course, you are always so much more capable of seeing through the fog than the rest of us. Thanks again.
 
#34
#34
I think Coulter's piece is emblematic of the situation. Instead of saying the guy that killed the doctor is wrong and broke the law, period, its a let's-put-this-in-some-other-context argument.
 
#35
#35
lawgator1 said:
I think Coulter's piece is emblematic of the situation. Instead of saying the guy that killed the doctor is wrong and broke the law, period, its a let's-put-this-in-some-other-context argument.
Click to expand...

What I took from the piece is Coulter was pointing out the hypocrisy by many on the left in this issue.

It has been established by many (some without agendas and some with) that this particular man performed later term abortions for trivial reasons, skirting the law while doing so with the help of campaign donations to powerful local politicians. These late term abortions he has performed would be considered murder by the vast majority of Americans, the left cares nothing about this issue but holds this man up as a victim of savage right wing zealots. There is blatant hypocrisy in doing this and she is pointing it out. As usual for her she goes over the top but the point is still valid.

I know you may come back to rule of law but remember what he was doing (late term abortions) was against the law unless there was a compelling medical reason to override it. He broke the law and with the help of Sabellias (sp?) he avoided prosecution.

Personally I wish this man would never have murdered the man so he could stand trial and public humiliation the trial would bring.
 
#36
#36
rjd970 said:
I think this is an excellent point.
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I think that was the point Coulter was trying to make. For once, she actually makes a little bit of sense. Here's the quote I posted earlier, slightly modified.

I wouldn't ________ a(n) ________ myself, but I wouldn't want to impose my moral values on others. No one is for ________ing ________s. But how will criminalizing men making difficult, often tragic, decisions be an effective means of achieving the goal of reducing the ________ings of _________s?

She took a statement that often times pro-choice people make in relation to Having Abortions, and used "Killing/Shooting Abortionists", which basically begs the question, where do we draw the line?

(There's a really obscene thing you can plug into those blanks that makes it REALLY funny, hahaha).

Honestly, I think that when a baby is capable of existing without the mother's physical body and an abortion is performed, then it is murder.
 
#37
#37
lawgator1 said:
I think Coulter's piece is emblematic of the situation. Instead of saying the guy that killed the doctor is wrong and broke the law, period, its a let's-put-this-in-some-other-context argument.
Click to expand...

That would make for really interesting writing.
 
#38
#38
KB5252 said:
What I took from the piece is Coulter was pointing out the hypocrisy by many on the left in this issue.

It has been established by many (some without agendas and some with) that this particular man performed later term abortions for trivial reasons, skirting the law while doing so with the help of campaign donations to powerful local politicians. These late term abortions he has performed would be considered murder by the vast majority of Americans, the left cares nothing about this issue but holds this man up as a victim of savage right wing zealots. There is blatant hypocrisy in doing this and she is pointing it out. As usual for her she goes over the top but the point is still valid.

I know you may come back to rule of law but remember what he was doing (late term abortions) was against the law unless there was a compelling medical reason to override it. He broke the law and with the help of Sabellias (sp?) he avoided prosecution.

Personally I wish this man would never have murdered the man so he could stand trial and public humiliation the trial would bring.
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That's odd. Generally, if "the vast majority of Americans" find something so abhorrent as to be criminal, their elected legislatures place a prohibition on it in the criminal code. The actual fact is this: Most Americans don't give a flying damn one way or the other about late term abortions. They see it for what it is, a political wedge issue that has absolutely zero effect on their daily life.
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#39
#39
hatvol96 said:
That's odd. Generally, if "the vast majority of Americans" find something so abhorrent as to be criminal, their elected legislatures place a prohibition on it in the criminal code. The actual fact is this: Most Americans don't give a flying damn one way or the other about late term abortions. They see it for what it is, a political wedge issue that has absolutely zero effect on their daily life.
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Are late term abortions legal in most states? I thought Kansas had something different than other states?
 
#40
#40
hatvol96 said:
That's odd. Generally, if "the vast majority of Americans" find something so abhorrent as to be criminal, their elected legislatures place a prohibition on it in the criminal code. The actual fact is this: Most Americans don't give a flying damn one way or the other about late term abortions. They see it for what it is, a political wedge issue that has absolutely zero effect on their daily life.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

I am no expert on law but unless I am wrong (may very well be) just about every state does have restrictions on late term abortions unless there is medical reason to do so.

I would argue that the issue of abortion is certainly a wedge issue in general but late term abortions specifically are viewed much differently than early term abortion, thus the reason they are not allowed.
 
#41
#41
allvol123 said:
Are late term abortions legal in most states? I thought Kansas had something different than other states?
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I think most states have some limitation on the time frame during which a procedure may be done, with some accounting for health risks to the mother. My point is that if people were that concerned about such conduct, there would be more of a blanket criminality. The reason there isn't is because most people actually have lives and aren't concerning themselves with the reproductive decisions of others.
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#42
#42
wbailey7 said:
I think that was the point Coulter was trying to make. For once, she actually makes a little bit of sense. Here's the quote I posted earlier, slightly modified.

I wouldn't ________ a(n) ________ myself, but I wouldn't want to impose my moral values on others. No one is for ________ing ________s. But how will criminalizing men making difficult, often tragic, decisions be an effective means of achieving the goal of reducing the ________ings of _________s?

She took a statement that often times pro-choice people make in relation to Having Abortions, and used "Killing/Shooting Abortionists", which basically begs the question, where do we draw the line?

(There's a really obscene thing you can plug into those blanks that makes it REALLY funny, hahaha).

Honestly, I think that when a baby is capable of existing without the mother's physical body and an abortion is performed, then it is murder.
Click to expand...

I was referring to abortion being legal and drugs not...but ok.
 
#43
#43
lawgator1 said:
I think Coulter's piece is emblematic of the situation. Instead of saying the guy that killed the doctor is wrong and broke the law, period, its a let's-put-this-in-some-other-context argument.
Click to expand...

i think she knows it's wrong, she's pointing out just more of the liberal hypocrisy.
 
#44
#44
Some relevant statistics...

Total abortions conducted at or after 21 weeks: 1.4%

Total abortions conducted at or after 24 weeks: 0.08%

That is not alot, but in real numbers the statistics are more disturbing. At or after 24 weeks is disgusting IMO, and that relates to just over 1,000 per year.

The vast majority of abortions - >88% - are done within the first 9 weeks.
 
#45
#45
rjd970 said:
Some relevant statistics...

Total abortions conducted at or after 21 weeks: 1.4%

Total abortions conducted at or after 24 weeks: 0.08%

That is not alot, but in real numbers the statistics are more disturbing. At or after 24 weeks is disgusting IMO, and that relates to just over 1,000 per year.

The vast majority of abortions - >88% - are done within the first 9 weeks.
Click to expand...
for a bit of perspective on this, my twins were born at 25 weeks.
 
#46
#46
If one believes that the late term abortions are morally wrong and ought to be banned everywhere, and that they aren't in Kansas, go lobby the Kansas Legislature. You may well be right, in the universal moral sense (if there is one). But don't take it upon yourself to impose your will on others when the issue has been decided by those our society has given the power to decide.

And also, while I am at it, framing Coulter's piece as "her just pointing out some more liberal hipocrisy" is a misleading overstatement. She is not advocating killing the abortion doctor (or others). But she is getting into the moral superiority position of those that are sympathetic to the guy's motive.

They may have the better argument when it comes to abortion, that's debatable I would agree. But even if they are right, they do not have the authority in this society to overrule the Kansas Legislature. I am not one for slippery slope arguments, but this is where that fits, to wit: If he can decide the law is wrong and take action on it, then what's to stop someone else from doing it?
 
#48
#48
rjd970 said:
Some relevant statistics...

Total abortions conducted at or after 21 weeks: 1.4%

Total abortions conducted at or after 24 weeks: 0.08%

That is not alot, but in real numbers the statistics are more disturbing. At or after 24 weeks is disgusting IMO, and that relates to just over 1,000 per year.

The vast majority of abortions - >88% - are done within the first 9 weeks.
Click to expand...
A thousand per year, huh? So once you factor out legitimate procedures performed to save the life of an unhealthy prospective mother, we're probably talking about the same number of kids who accidentally hang themselves to death on swingsets.
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#49
#49
lawgator1 said:
If one believes that the late term abortions are morally wrong and ought to be banned everywhere, and that they aren't in Kansas, go lobby the Kansas Legislature. You may well be right, in the universal moral sense (if there is one). But don't take it upon yourself to impose your will on others when the issue has been decided by those our society has given the power to decide.
Click to expand...
fortunately this silliness didn't keep us from going to war over slavery.
 
#50
#50
lawgator1 said:
If one believes that the late term abortions are morally wrong and ought to be banned everywhere, and that they aren't in Kansas, go lobby the Kansas Legislature. You may well be right, in the universal moral sense (if there is one). But don't take it upon yourself to impose your will on others when the issue has been decided by those our society has given the power to decide.

And also, while I am at it, framing Coulter's piece as "her just pointing out some more liberal hipocrisy" is a misleading overstatement. She is not advocating killing the abortion doctor (or others). But she is getting into the moral superiority position of those that are sympathetic to the guy's motive.

They may have the better argument when it comes to abortion, that's debatable I would agree. But even if they are right, they do not have the authority in this society to overrule the Kansas Legislature. I am not one for slippery slope arguments, but this is where that fits, to wit: If he can decide the law is wrong and take action on it, then what's to stop someone else from doing it?
Click to expand...

The problem is that Kansas already has laws that apply here. The charge was/is that this particular man skirted these laws with the help of politicians he donated money to. I am certain that not all of his procedures were late term abortions but some where, and of those there are many that have been found to be problematic, when pressed to do something about his practices Sabelius (sp?) covered for and refused to address the issue.
 
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