Heupel vs Fulmer

[Volfan1000]

Just to note:

Fulmer went 9-2-1 in his second year, then 8-4 in his third year. I'm guessing lots of fans were very skeptical of his potential after that third year.

He then went 11-1 (damn Gators!) in his fourth year.

We get Bama and UF at Neyland next year, and we *may have a better QB and receiving corps.

And Banks is a better defensive coordinator than 3rd down and Chavis was.

 

[LWSVOL]

Keep this and let me know if wrong.

Whatever record we end up with, 2024 record won't be as good. Will play a lot of youth next year. Before anyone says portal, gonna need to run a lot of players off to sign many from portal.

 

[LWSVOL]

Totally agree we need to get Niko into the games for some playing time. I wasn't in favor of it in the early part of the season ( was waiting to see if we could win the big games against Florida/Bama ). Since we're only playing for a bowl game, why not roll the dice and let Niko play. It could do 2 things positive : could keep defenses guessing how to defend, and also maybe challenge Joe to play better and smarter

Good idea but not how Josh operates. Joe wil start barring injury. Right through Vandy and bowl game. Results of games doesn't matter.

 

[carolinaviking]

So a couple of my takeaways from this discussion:

First, raw, athletic talent--running, catching, size, strength, quickness--are more important to a team's success than coaching schemes and systems. I've always felt this way. Most receivers, for example, can catch a ball at full speed as long as they are open and the ball is accurately thrown. It's the athleticism that determines whether the receiver can get separation from the DBs and the QB can place the ball in the receiver's hands. Play calling plays a role, but without the athleticism, the plays cannot be executed effectively.

Second, the damage done to this program by Kiffin's midnight run cannot be overstated; he set us back decades in recruiting and development. We were high on him, he gave us hope, and he had a better season than expected. I, personally, felt we had found our Steve Spurrier (Phil was so boring to watch and listen to). But we're still feeling his runner today.

Third, Joe Milton puts up some good numbers when the offense is clicking, but a better QB would probably be putting up monster stats consistently and be in the Heisman discussion (*see H Hooker). One thing I've noticed is that too high a percentage of his completions are behind the receiver, meaning the numbers hide his inaccuracy and late reaction time. I'm not convinced the receivers deserve as much blame as they've gotten. Replays often show open receivers away from the play.

Finally, I'm not concerned about Nico's lack of playing time. Neither Manning nor Hooker got significant playing time before taking over and immediately making an impact. NCAA history is filled with inexperienced QBs stepping in and stepping up.

Interesting comments in the thread, lots to consider.

 

[cherokeeeVOL]

Don't we have an all senior secondary this year? Freshman or sophomore CBs are not a pleasant thought.

We also lose practically the entire starting offensive line.

 

[JMSqb11]

Maybe should have rode it out for another year or so...He did have a decent class coming in..People were done with him though and he kind of was a my way or the highway guy.. The clawfense doomed him. Although that kind of offense gained traction after that.. Then Lame happened and you know the rest of the story..

As much as I am fond of Kiffin and think he would have crushed it here, I don’t think the options available for the job were an upgrade over Fulmer staying, retooling the OC spot, and seeing if history is his friend (10+ wins after a 8 or less win season)

 

[OrangeTsar]

What you not saying though is Phil took over a program that was already stable. Josh took over a dumpster fire with NCAA sanctions looming. To compare the two is disingenuous

Yeah, Johnny had also stacked the cupboard with solid talent and depth and had coached them up on the fundamentals. The only thing Johnny had lost was the knowledge on how to use that talent in an evolving game. But Phil pretty much had a turn key team waiting for him

 

[Toucan Sam]

They both have 1 career win vs Saban

That's sad but so true.

 

[OrangeTsar]

That's sad but so true.

Better than most of the active coaches in America though sadly

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

So a couple of my takeaways from this discussion:

First, raw, athletic talent--running, catching, size, strength, quickness--are more important to a team's success than coaching schemes and systems. I've always felt this way. Most receivers, for example, can catch a ball at full speed as long as they are open and the ball is accurately thrown. It's the athleticism that determines whether the receiver can get separation from the DBs and the QB can place the ball in the receiver's hands. Play calling plays a role, but without the athleticism, the plays cannot be executed effectively.

Second, the damage done to this program by Kiffin's midnight run cannot be overstated; he set us back decades in recruiting and development. We were high on him, he gave us hope, and he had a better season than expected. I, personally, felt we had found our Steve Spurrier (Phil was so boring to watch and listen to). But we're still feeling his runner today.

Third, Joe Milton puts up some good numbers when the offense is clicking, but a better QB would probably be putting up monster stats consistently and be in the Heisman discussion (*see H Hooker). One thing I've noticed is that too high a percentage of his completions are behind the receiver, meaning the numbers hide his inaccuracy and late reaction time. I'm not convinced the receivers deserve as much blame as they've gotten. Replays often show open receivers away from the play.

Finally, I'm not concerned about Nico's lack of playing time. Neither Manning nor Hooker got significant playing time before taking over and immediately making an impact. NCAA history is filled with inexperienced QBs stepping in and stepping up.

Interesting comments in the thread, lots to consider.

Manning wouldn't have played much at all his freshman had both Jerry Colquitt and Todd Helton not suffered season ending injuries

 

[SpookyAction]

This. We had a bad run of inept coaching and player development prior to Josh Heupel. If Heupel has one flaw it's his dedication to his quarterback. Joe Milton is a great person with tremendous physical skills, maybe better suited to a tight end (think Tebow post college) than a QB. CJH has hung his hat on Milton and it is what it is. Joe's not a bad QB, but certainly not instinctive and makes questionable decisions.

I agree with Heupel that Sr Milton is better than Fr Nico.
I have my doubts about it being an ego thing, or Hooker would have been benched when Milton recovered after the Pitt game 2 yrs ago.
Coaches are loyal to players they think give them the best chance to win.
Our program is still in the early stages of recruiting and developing depth. It is the most pressing difference between our roster and a consistent playoff contending roster.

We can now look back to the Guarantano years and see he was usually the best option available, despite his play being painful to watch most of the time. None of the other QBs developed, either by poor coaching or being overrated in HS. The beating he consistently took due to bad OLine play never helped, and it screwed with his mental timer.

I remember Mike Ditka saying Heath Shuler was the best practice QB he ever saw. He looked shocked by NFL defenses in actual games. Ditka named him the starter because he was the best option on the roster. Some QBs just perform in safer situations, and lose their edge in the real fight.

Most people can throw a decent punch, but 90% of boxing is taking punishment and continuing to think and plan while defending and attacking.

I have been in live-fire situations, and training and practice is incredibly useful, but not everyone can rise to the occasion when being shot at. It takes a few moments to access the knowledge and combine it with survival instinct and inner strength to be the survivor by taking out the opponent before they can end you and your friends. It is like any situation where you turn off the pain (I get tunnel vision and my emotions go to the background) and just do what has to be done. You can think about it later. A lot of good and strong people just don't put it all together in time to execute.

 

[cgrish]

Not really. The general atmosphere was very + around CPF. 94' was a rebuild, but his recruiting prowess made it clear the trajectory. He'd landed a couple of not to shabby QBs. Now, there were still plenty of bitterness and some rejection due to how our Vol legend was just kicked to the curb.

I hope we have a good 24', but honestly looking at our senior loaded OL, DB, then DL situation, makes me skeptical that it will be any more than a rebuild season w a new QB.

And the scary part is these seniors are mostly pruitt recruits, we will see just how good of a recruiter Hype is the next 2 years, because they will all be Hype recruits. I hope it goes really well for us.

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

And the scary part is these seniors are mostly pruitt recruits, we will see just how good of a recruiter Hype is the next 2 years, because they will all be Hype recruits. I hope it goes really well for us.

Scary?

 

[TennEddie]

Fulmer had some of the best players in UT history.
Hype has done more with less, but the jury is still out.

 

[volbound1700]

I agree with Heupel that Sr Milton is better than Fr Nico.
I have my doubts about it being an ego thing, or Hooker would have been benched when Milton recovered after the Pitt game 2 yrs ago.
Coaches are loyal to players they think give them the best chance to win.
Our program is still in the early stages of recruiting and developing depth. It is the most pressing difference between our roster and a consistent playoff contending roster.

We can now look back to the Guarantano years and see he was usually the best option available, despite his play being painful to watch most of the time. None of the other QBs developed, either by poor coaching or being overrated in HS. The beating he consistently took due to bad OLine play never helped, and it screwed with his mental timer.

I remember Mike Ditka saying Heath Shuler was the best practice QB he ever saw. He looked shocked by NFL defenses in actual games. Ditka named him the starter because he was the best option on the roster. Some QBs just perform in safer situations, and lose their edge in the real fight.

Most people can throw a decent punch, but 90% of boxing is taking punishment and continuing to think and plan while defending and attacking.

I have been in live-fire situations, and training and practice is incredibly useful, but not everyone can rise to the occasion when being shot at. It takes a few moments to access the knowledge and combine it with survival instinct and inner strength to be the survivor by taking out the opponent before they can end you and your friends. It is like any situation where you turn off the pain (I get tunnel vision and my emotions go to the background) and just do what has to be done. You can think about it later. A lot of good and strong people just don't put it all together in time to execute.

I feel like JG also sunk our program as bad as Kiffin leaving, etc. He was so inconsistent. It was kind of sad because I think JG really cared about being a Vol and gave the effort, he just wasn't good other than those 2-to-3 games a year he figured out everything.

Our program got slightly better as soon as we got through the QB issues around JG. Milton isn't as bad as JG but we are struggling a little with him. It will be curious to see if Nico can put it together next year. Having a full offseason to practice and work with team (after having this season as well) could get him ready.

2015, 2016, and 2019 should have been more successful years. We were not far off from 10-11 wins those seasons. 2016 should have had an Atlanta appearance as well.

I do think Heupel has elevated our program from being where it was from 2010-2020 to more like how it was from 2001-2009 with Phillip Fulmer. It is going to be really challenging to get to late 1990s level because of Saban and Smart being in the way. Fulmer had Spurrier in his way but no one else and Spurrier is NOT on the level of Saban or Smart on coaching talent level.

Saban is about to leave which will open up the league a little. Not sure how OU and Texas impact us though as both programs look like they are on upswing and that is just more competition. The 12-team playoff format, though, might be our saving grace. I think Heupel can get us in the top 12.

Our program needs some stability though which means even regular seasons of 8-9 wins where we are competitive is actually a positive.

 

[lukeneyland]

I like Fulmer but it’s Heupel and it’s not even close. Fulmer inherited a program already full of elite talent

 

[cgrish]

Scary?

Scary, might not be the best word, I am just anxious to see what we have when the whole roster is Hype recruits

 

[livefaith]

And the scary part is these seniors are mostly pruitt recruits, we will see just how good of a recruiter Hype is the next 2 years, because they will all be Hype recruits. I hope it goes really well for us.

Yeah, the record is empty for CJH building up a program of his own recruits, developing, and motivating them to be one as a winning team. He's never done it, so we shall see. That kind of leadership is a different animal.
Most think when "he gets his own players" is always better. But 4 or 5 years of a young life is a long time to spend under the direction of the same leader. It requires different skills than a rebuild in 2/3 years.
Two clear and recent examples of failures in this ... Gene Chizik & Butch Jones. The good news is that the players seem to gravitAte to Josh and I hear no staff rumblings or negative defections so far.

 

[turbovol]

I like Fulmer but it’s Heupel and it’s not even close. Fulmer inherited a program already full of elite talent

This is not true at all. Fulmer inherited decent talent--no better. Plus, nobody's team talent stays then same when there is a coaching/staff
change. It will get better or worse, generally. Fulmer raised our talent level, big-time. Our 1999/2000 teams were the most talented in the last 50 years.

 

[Vol865]

Yes, that 8-4 season we lost to UF 31-0 and Iof course after the game I was kicking stuff and talking about how Phil wasn't the guy, etc...

One big difference between then and now was recruiting. Phil went on a 4-5 year stretch where he was signing the #1 or #2 class in the SEC every year. Those were top 5 classes and included a #1 overall.


When we look at JH so far (and I'm including Texas and Oklahoma because they're here next year) he has signed:

The 9th, 8th and 6th best teams in the SEC so far.

As I've consistently said since Phil started his slide in the 2000s, you need to sign somewhere around the top 1-3ish best classes in the conference every year or you'll need to be one of the best talent developers/strategists/Gameday coaches in the history of all college football to win the conference.

While I agree, Fulmer took over a stable program and Heupel took over a mess. It takes time to get those type of classes when you're not seen as a top program by the youth. We haven't been to an SECCG since 2007 and haven't won one since 1998. Add in the investigation and roster depletion that ensued and Heupel has a lot to still do. Just look at what our OL looks like next year. It took Dabo about 6 years to get Clemson to the top. I could see a similar scenario for Heupel IF things continue to improve or at least don't regress.

 

[utvolpj]

This is not true at all. Fulmer inherited decent talent--no better. Plus, nobody's team talent stays then same when there is a coaching/staff
change. It will get better or worse, generally. Fulmer raised our talent level, big-time. Our 1999/2000 teams were the most talented in the last 50 years.

Fulmer inherited some players who had been SEC champs. They were coming off 9 win seasons that were seen as underachieving. Heupel inherited players who had seen one winning season in their UT career. The status of the program wasn't even close

 

[sjt18]

Just to note:

Fulmer went 9-2-1 in his second year, then 8-4 in his third year. I'm guessing lots of fans were very skeptical of his potential after that third year.

He then went 11-1 (damn Gators!) in his fourth year.

We get Bama and UF at Neyland next year, and we *may have a better QB and receiving corps.

Completely different era as far as coaching and recruiting.

 

[aRmo]

How's the oline looking for 2024?

Not to good coach. We do not have a true center, we will be losing both tackles again. Will be 4/5 new guys. Hopefully we dip in the portal again but it doesnt look good.

 

[Volanooga2521]

Also a weaker conference back in the 90’s

Exactly, Bama, UGA, LSU all were average or bad at that time. LSU sucked until Saban, UGA got a modest upgrade from Ray Goff to Donnan and Bama was very hit and miss.

 

[sjt18]

Phil was an unbelievable recruiter. His squads were loaded with talent. His coaching and drive, he would fall asleep in meetings, declined greatly but recruiting was good all the way through.

In an era when the competition in recruiting was nothing like it is today and when a few programs including UT had a decisive advantage in terms of the resources devoted to recruiting. Fulmer regularly raided NC and SC for the best players in those states in part because he was a good recruiter and in part because none of the in state programs had a good recruiting structure.