Higgs boson?

[Thrasher865]

It was an analogy.

An analogy? Please explain.

I don't think you even understand any modern scientific theories. I don't think you want to.

"Less scared?" What do I have to be scared of? It's just funny to listen to you.

 

[NEO]

I'm also going to answer you one time seriously and would appreciate no jokes or slams back since neither of us, nor can anyone, prove how we really got here and we are just talking.

I believe that this universe came from something, whether it be another dimension, or universe, or place we cant even fathom yet. I do believe it came with a bang but that everything fell into place with that bang or 6 quick cycles of bangs. There are theories that there were more than one big bang. I believe their were 6 and when God speaks of days he does not mean days as we understand it, he means cycles. As far as the other strings, I do believe they exist. I believe there may even be more than 11. There may be 11 within 11, within 11 and so on.

 

[Thrasher865]

Okay...

When you say there are theories that there was more than one big bang, do you have a citation? There are plenty who believe in multiple big bangs forming multiple universes. I don't know of a theory that there were multiple big bangs that formed this universe.

I can appreciate how you're at least trying to merge scientific theories backed by evidence with what your holy book says, I just don't think there's any evidence to support anything in that theory. You're right, though. Nobody can say how we got here. Some theories have more credibility than others, though, IMO.

I don't currently believe that there are any more than 4 dimensions. I don't discount the very real possibility that there are 11. I don't think string theory is complete bogus. I will just wait until I see at least some experimental evidence of these extra dimensions.

 

[NEO]

An analogy? Please explain.

I don't think you even understand any modern scientific theories. I don't think you want to.

"Less scared?" What do I have to be scared of? It's just funny to listen to you.

Just because someone disagrees does not mean they do not understand.

You can play nice right?

Because I dont remember ever belittling you or calling you illiterate.

 

[Thrasher865]

So you believe each bang created more? How do you think life got here?

I think it's pretty clear that heavier elements did not exist at any point close to the big bang. They required first the formation and death of generations of stars.

 

[Thrasher865]

Just because someone disagrees does not mean they do not understand.

You can play nice right?

Because I dont remember ever belittling you or calling you illiterate.

Sorry, neo. Your analogy just led me to believe that you were trying to apply a concept to string theory that violated everything string theory alleges.

I thought you were trolling me again.

 

[NEO]

Okay...

When you say there are theories that there was more than one big bang, do you have a citation? There are plenty who believe in multiple big bangs forming multiple universes. I don't know of a theory that there were multiple big bangs that formed this universe.

I can appreciate how you're at least trying to merge scientific theories backed by evidence with what your holy book says, I just don't think there's any evidence to support anything in that theory. You're right, though. Nobody can say how we got here. Some theories have more credibility than others, though, IMO.

I don't currently believe that there are any more than 4 dimensions. I don't discount the very real possibility that there are 11. I don't think string theory is complete bogus. I will just wait until I see at least some experimental evidence of these extra dimensions.

Yes, I am a Christian so my holy book filled with wonderful fairy tales and magic and dragons and a boy named Harry Christ who died on the cross and rose again to beat he who canot be named does go hand in hand with all of my other beliefs. Yes, I do believe in 6 seperate bangs. I believe they are outlined in the Bible.

 

[Thrasher865]

So bang 1, what is created, bang 2, etc? Do you believe it's exactly as outlined in Genesis. Each bang simply represents a day?

 

[NEO]

So you believe each bang created more? How do you think life got here?

I think it's pretty clear that heavier elements did not exist at any point close to the big bang. They required first the formation and death of generations of stars.

I honestly belief the 6 days of creation outlines the 6 bangs. I know, I know, silly bible. But if you look at the flow of the 6 days it mirrors the same flow that the big bang would lead us to.

Genesis creation narrative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Thrasher865]

How could a "big bang" create land on Earth? or lifeforms?

 

[NEO]

So bang 1, what is created, bang 2, etc? Do you believe it's exactly as outlined in Genesis. Each bang simply represents a day?

I think the word days is used many times throughout the Bible because we dont quite grasp space and time and it is figurative.

I dont think it went bang 24 hours, bang 24 hours, but it could have went, bang, bang, bang, bang, like a shotgun or it could have went bang million years later bang. This part doesnt really matter to me. As it doesnt change the over all tone.

 

[NEO]

How could a "big bang" create land on Earth? or lifeforms?

I personally the first bang was like an earthquake and each bang that followed was an aftershock that was contained within the first bang.

I believe it took parts of the previous bang and added to it.

Bible clearly says we came from dust.

We were formed from the dust of a previous bang.

 

[Thrasher865]

I like the metaphor that we were formed from stardust better. Either way.

 

[Thrasher865]

If string theory is to be believed, your multiple bangs scenario wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility, I imagine. However, I don't know that there's any evidence really to say that it's likely.

I just don't think complex organisms were created from a bang, but that is basically creationism, so we're back at square one and just have to agree to disagree.

 

[NEO]

Maybe I need to be more clear.

First bang basically took the needed building block to build a universe and dumped them into our universe the way a kid would dump legos from a toy box (the other universe) onto the floor (our universe) and begin playing.

From that point each bang is simply the child putting together legos into new objects that did not exist previously. The new object (bang) is self contained because it is coming from the legos that were placed on the floor during the first bang.

After the child is done the legos are all self contained and the boy leaves. But the toy chest still exist. As does the boy.


*this post was written before you had posted the one above it*

 

[NEO]

If string theory is to be believed, your multiple bangs scenario wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility, I imagine. However, I don't know that there's any evidence really to say that it's likely.

I just don't think complex organisms were created from a bang, but that is basically creationism, so we're back at square one and just have to agree to disagree.

But we left both understanding each others beliefs a little better an in respect.

That is the most important thing here. We actually got somewhere.

 

[PKT_VOL]

I don't think so. Quantum theory describes the ability to create the matter we now know from nothing, even space itself from nothing. It doesn't necessarily describe anything about coming from other universes.

I think context in everything. The universe wave function can create matter, energy, space-time, etc. out of practically nothing from our vantage point. Our vantage point is from inside the universe created. Where did the universe wave function come from? It certainly didn't materialize out of thin air. If you view the same problem from from an outsider's perspective looking inward upon our universe or from the 11th dimension of M-theory, the thought that our universe is alone and that the universe wave function arose from absolutely nothing is absurd. There is more to the story.

Many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics in no way implies that our universe was "created" from another universe,

This is precisely why I differentiated between explicit and implicit implications. Your right, the multiple worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics in no way explicitly implies that our universe was "created" from another universe. However, to believe that our universe wasn't in some way, shape, or formed from another universe is to take a geocentric approach to the multiple worlds interpretation. In other words, our universe would be the single diverging point from which all other universes are connected. Although logically possible, it is mathematically almost impossible. If our universe wasn't the first single diverging point, we were in some way, shape, or form "created" from them. Again, the mechanics of this process would be a complete mystery.

unless of course you're implying that it was created by branching off of the infinitely many past universes. That would be a completely different concept altogether, though, because nothing is created in that scenario.

If our universe was created by branching off of a past universe or many universes, then our universe was "created" in some way, shape, or form by another universe. I am not sure what "create" entails by your definition. To me, anything which severely influences our universe currently or at the Big Bang in essence "creates" the universe before our eyes.

 

[PKT_VOL]

How would that open the possibility of God? If anything, in my mind, it would explain an eternally existing universe, thus eliminating the need for God.

Either way, the argument for First Cause will never be settled. Not ever.

Surely you don't truly mean eternal because there was the Big Bang...

Our universe would not be the issue. The issue would be what caused the Big Bang. The short answer is that it was initiated in some way from another universe with possibly different laws of nature than our own universe.

The question then shifts to a series of questions such as:

What was the process that created the Big Bang?
What are the other universes like?
Are they all connected or do they act independently?
Is there a single independent source of creation for all universes?

It will most certainly kill the notion of an all-caring God who intervenes in our everyday life. This notion is logically dead as is given what we know about the universe. However, it does't leave out the possibility of creative deity (God) of some sort or theological concerns such as whether all the information of the universe will be screened by an entity once our universe is over (it could be heaven/hell like, it could be computer like, it could never take place).

 

[Gramps]

You guys are giving me a headache .

Just read Genises and call it a day.

 

[theutvolunteers]

The way people believe the Bible is truly a fascinating story itself. A big bang per creation day? Dunno what to say.

 

[Thrasher865]

You guys are giving me a headache .

Just read Genises and call it a day.

Welcome to religion. You still trollin', Gramps?

 

[Thrasher865]

Surely you don't truly mean eternal because there was the Big Bang...

You're saying the universe couldn't have existed before the big bang? Either on a different scale, or with different types of matter/forces and different laws of physics?

Our universe would not be the issue. The issue would be what caused the Big Bang. The short answer is that it was initiated in some way from another universe with possibly different laws of nature than our own universe.

That's certainly a short answer. That doesn't make it the right answer.

The question then shifts to a series of questions such as:

What was the process that created the Big Bang?
What are the other universes like?
Are they all connected or do they act independently?
Is there a single independent source of creation for all universes?

I can't answer these questions, because I don't necessarily subscribe to Many Worlds. I recognize it has some merit, but I don't really see any overwhelming evidence.

It will most certainly kill the notion of an all-caring God who intervenes in our everyday life. This notion is logically dead as is given what we know about the universe. However, it does't leave out the possibility of creative deity (God) of some sort or theological concerns such as whether all the information of the universe will be screened by an entity once our universe is over (it could be heaven/hell like, it could be computer like, it could never take place).

What does rule out the possibility of a creative deity? I don't understand how this would make intelligent design any more or less likely than any other theory.

 

[Thrasher865]

I think context in everything. The universe wave function can create matter, energy, space-time, etc. out of practically nothing from our vantage point. Our vantage point is from inside the universe created. Where did the universe wave function come from? It certainly didn't materialize out of thin air. If you view the same problem from from an outsider's perspective looking inward upon our universe or from the 11th dimension of M-theory, the thought that our universe is alone and that the universe wave function arose from absolutely nothing is absurd. There is more to the story.

At some point, something either had to arise out of nothing, or it was eternally existing. I don't claim to know which, but one is no more absurd than the other. Like I said, the argument over First Cause has been going for centuries.

This is precisely why I differentiated between explicit and implicit implications. Your right, the multiple worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics in no way explicitly implies that our universe was "created" from another universe. However, to believe that our universe wasn't in some way, shape, or formed from another universe is to take a geocentric approach to the multiple worlds interpretation. In other words, our universe would be the single diverging point from which all other universes are connected. Although logically possible, it is mathematically almost impossible. If our universe wasn't the first single diverging point, we were in some way, shape, or form "created" from them. Again, the mechanics of this process would be a complete mystery.

If our universe was created by branching off of a past universe or many universes, then our universe was "created" in some way, shape, or form by another universe. I am not sure what "create" entails by your definition. To me, anything which severely influences our universe currently or at the Big Bang in essence "creates" the universe before our eyes.

I never meant to imply that I thought that all universes branched off our own. That wouldn't make sense logically. Do these universes have to branch off as we move forward in time? Or could they all have been created simultaneously, and our consciousness simply interprets them on a fixed time scale?

In that scenario, no universe would be created from another universe. More simply, I meant that I don't necessarily believe the Many Worlds Interpretation.

 

[Gramps]

I think context in everything. The universe wave function can create matter, energy, space-time, etc. out of practically nothing from our vantage point. Our vantage point is from inside the universe created. Where did the universe wave function come from? It certainly didn't materialize out of thin air. If you view the same problem from from an outsider's perspective looking inward upon our universe or from the 11th dimension of M-theory, the thought that our universe is alone and that the universe wave function arose from absolutely nothing is absurd. There is more to the story.



This is precisely why I differentiated between explicit and implicit implications. Your right, the multiple worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics in no way explicitly implies that our universe was "created" from another universe. However, to believe that our universe wasn't in some way, shape, or formed from another universe is to take a geocentric approach to the multiple worlds interpretation. In other words, our universe would be the single diverging point from which all other universes are connected. Although logically possible, it is mathematically almost impossible. If our universe wasn't the first single diverging point, we were in some way, shape, or form "created" from them. Again, the mechanics of this process would be a complete mystery.



If our universe was created by branching off of a past universe or many universes, then our universe was "created" in some way, shape, or form by another universe. I am not sure what "create" entails by your definition. To me, anything which severely influences our universe currently or at the Big Bang in essence "creates" the universe before our eyes.

Are you trying to use this discovery to prove Mormonism?

note last paragraph below.

In Mormonism, men and women have the potential of becoming gods.
President Lorenzo Snow said, "As god once was, man is. As God is, man may become."

In order to reach this exalted state of godhood, a person must first become a good Mormon, pay a full ten percent tithe to the Mormon church, follow various laws and ordinances of the church, and be found worthy.*

At this point, they receive a temple recommend, whereupon the Mormon is allowed to enter their sacred temples in order to go through*a set of secret rituals: baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, and various oaths of secrecy and commitment.

Additionally, four secret handshakes are taught so the believing Mormon, upon entering the third level of Mormon heaven, can shake hands with god in a certain pattern. This celestial ritual is for the purpose of permitting entrance into the highest level of heaven.

*For those who achieve this highest of heavens, exaltation to godhood awaits them. Then he or she will be permitted to have his or her own planet and be the god of his own world and the Mormon system will be expanded to other planets.

 

[Thrasher865]

WTF? Did you make that up, Gramps?

So all I have to do is learn their secret handshake, and boom! I'm a god? Eff this, I'm becoming a Mormon.