Holy Trinity Discussion

[OrangeTsar]

the 1-3 thing violates Torah. Specifically where it relates to the “kindsmen redeemer.”
Does it not just make more sense to take him at his word as only begotten of the most high? Without all the snake like conversation “did G-d say He was only one? No, what he meant was that he’s actually 3 and one both”

We’ve always been told in both Torah and the writings that G-d is not the author of confusion

It is not confusion. It is incomprehension (by us all). We are finite beings existing in Spacetime trying to understand the reality of an all power and infinite being that exists everywhere and also outside of spacetime. We all see pieces of the picture but none of us can see it all.
I understand the difficulties that the concept of Trinity is very hard to square with the Torah. But Jesus was pretty clear that He viewed Himself as having a very unique and unprecedented relationship to the Father. It was and still is scandalous. When it all came down to it, thatbis one of the main reasons He was executed. And I am NOT blaming the Jews for the crucifiction. All of humanity killed him (myself included) by our sins.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Back to work

 

[Orangeslice13]

It is not confusion. It is incomprehension (by us all). We are finite beings existing in Spacetime trying to understand the reality of an all power and infinite being that exists everywhere and also outside of spacetime. We all see pieces of the picture but none of us can see it all.
I understand the difficulties that the concept of Trinity is very hard to square with the Torah. But Jesus was pretty clear that He viewed Himself as having a very unique and unprecedented relationship to the Father. It was and still is scandalous. When it all came down to it, thatbis one of the main reasons He was executed. And I am NOT blaming the Jews for the crucifiction. All of humanity killed him (myself included) by our sins.

Yeshua is Torah. The ultimate authority on such.
If he ever violated Torah then he was not the redeemer and your faith is vanity.

This is going to be hard for a lot of people….but Paul was a Torah teacher teaching it to adults like they were small children covering what’s important first.
He testified twice in the temple to this fact
And the Bereans, ultimate authority on Torah agreed.

 

[GVF]

Yes
Both times.
Lol

What would you like to discuss.

Messiah was executed by the Romans for claiming to be king of the Jews. (Since you didn’t follow up on “Nope”

At the behest of the Jews. The Romans/Pilate found no fault with him. Pilate was relectant, and washed his hands of the repsonsibility while also yielding to the Jews demand. As they themselves were prohibited from doing so.

 

[GVF]

I **** you not….i was going to tag you right now before going back to work

I have a hard time discerning what you call work...judging from your toes up picture over the river.

 

[GVF]

Distinction with out a definitional difference.

There is only one G-d “the shema” and one begotten of G-d.
Distinct and one of a kind. But not 2 of a kind.

You’re well read. What argument do you have for the existence of the Holy Spirit?

My position is that the HS is simply G-d as G-d is spirit.

Good read on the Trinity topic.

Understanding the Trinity: How Can God Be Three Persons in One? | Cru

While we cannot fully understand everything about the Trinity, it is possible to answer questions and come to a solid grasp of what it means for God to be three in one.

www.cru.org

 

[GVF]

It is not confusion. It is incomprehension (by us all). We are finite beings existing in Spacetime trying to understand the reality of an all power and infinite being that exists everywhere and also outside of spacetime. We all see pieces of the picture but none of us can see it all.
I understand the difficulties that the concept of Trinity is very hard to square with the Torah. But Jesus was pretty clear that He viewed Himself as having a very unique and unprecedented relationship to the Father. It was and still is scandalous. When it all came down to it, thatbis one of the main reasons He was executed. And I am NOT blaming the Jews for the crucifiction. All of humanity killed him (myself included) by our sins.

Important point. The ruling class Jews may have carried out the act out of fear of him, but the sins of all mankind (past/present/future) killed him in the Garden of Eden in order that he might have salvation to give us all. The fact that Jews specifically called for the crucifixion is merely a fulfillment of OT prophecy. The inception of that prophecy was bred in the Garden.

 

[LouderVol]

Distinction with out a definitional difference.

There is only one G-d “the shema” and one begotten of G-d.
Distinct and one of a kind. But not 2 of a kind.

You’re well read. What argument do you have for the existence of the Holy Spirit?

My position is that the HS is simply G-d as G-d is spirit.

I have been trying to get back to some of the more original text on some of the finer points, but generally don't have time to actually research it myself and rely on others. Even in the last year some of those I rely on I have had to drop when certain issues were brought to my attention. basically I have been trying to research what the Catholic Church has changed, and the why of it. I don't always agree with what they did, but I appreciate their explanations and reasoning which takes a lot of the near-blasphemy into semantic/linguistic arguments, like this one.

I would have to go back and refind it to verify but I think they only use "monogenes" once other in the bible, it was in the Old Testament and I am pretty sure it was dealing with Jacob. Assuming I am remembering correctly it would further support its not "only begotten" but rather "unique". but it might have been Isaac which pushes it back to being either definition as Isaac was the only son and also pretty dang special.

not sure I really understand your take there at the end. Mathew's description of the baptism of Christ places all three distinctly in the same narrative. haven't read up on a distinction between Holy Spirit and Spirit of God, I always assumed they were the same thing. but that may be another greek thing for me to look into.

 

[LouderVol]

Yeshua is Torah. The ultimate authority on such.
If he ever violated Torah then he was not the redeemer and your faith is vanity.

This is going to be hard for a lot of people….but Paul was a Torah teacher teaching it to adults like they were small children covering what’s important first.
He testified twice in the temple to this fact
And the Bereans, ultimate authority on Torah agreed.

or the Torah as recorded wasn't fully correct and he was down here to show us how to actually live it. Jesus makes it pretty clear that he had issue with some of the keepers/practitioners of the law, with them losing the intent behind the message.

 

[GVF]

Heb. 11
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Jn1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[b] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”[f]


Hebrews Chapter 11. Read in full. Along with John 1. The very basis of the majority of these discussions.

John is plainly describing the Trinity, the essence of God, and the individualism of God. JtheB defers to the Holy Spirit as well. I liken the HS to the essence of life itself, your soul, the heartbeat and power of the trinity so to speak.

 

[Orangeslice13]

or the Torah as recorded wasn't fully correct and he was down here to show us how to actually live it. Jesus makes it pretty clear that he had issue with some of the keepers/practitioners of the law, with them losing the intent behind the message.

I want to go back and answer everything later because I enjoy this so….but I have a second for this. one.

Close enough to be correct!!
Yeshua even says as much. The Pharisees or leaders of the day had added so much to the actual Torah that they were teaching the people things that were never required of G-d as if they were. “Equating your traditions of man to the word of YHWH”. Messiah wasn’t just the redeemer he was the preeminent Teacher of Torah. The absolute authority on it.

Well done.

 

[LouderVol]

I want to go back and answer everything later because I enjoy this so….but I have a second for this. one.

Close enough to be correct!!
Yeshua even says as much. The Pharisees or leaders of the day had added so much to the actual Torah that they were teaching the people things that were never required of G-d as if they were. “Equating your traditions of man to the word of YHWH”. Messiah wasn’t just the redeemer he was the preeminent Teacher of Torah. The absolute authority on it.

Well done.

yeah, I should have added *and/or as practiced during his time* to the recorded part.

 

[GVF]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness...



But...what piques my interest is the locales of all the ancient cities, and the domains of Eden. The singe river that watered Eden...as the headwater of the four rivers after leaving Eden, etc.

"10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin[d] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.[e] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates."

Some say because of the gold mentioned, etc., That eden encompassed east african areas south of egypt. And we certainly have no indications as to how large Eden actually was. But, two of the rivers are still identifiable in Iraq, and feed from headwaters in Turkey. It's all quite fascinating.

 

[bamawriter]

@Orangeslice13

Can we go back to the Ethiopian canon? What is it that you're seeing that's significantly different from the modern New Testament canon?

 

[GVF]

or the Torah as recorded wasn't fully correct and he was down here to show us how to actually live it. Jesus makes it pretty clear that he had issue with some of the keepers/practitioners of the law, with them losing the intent behind the message.

Hebrews 7-9 deals with the old law/new law in depth.

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

8 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[b]:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

 

[me_grag53]

Yes
Both times.
Lol

What would you like to discuss.

Messiah was executed by the Romans for claiming to be king of the Jews. (Since you didn’t follow up on “Nope”

He was brought to the Romans by the priests. When given the opportunity the priests chose Barrabas instead of Jesus. Pilate washeds his hands of His blood.

 

[PKT_VOL]

It is not confusion. It is incomprehension (by us all). We are finite beings existing in Spacetime trying to understand the reality of an all power and infinite being that exists everywhere and also outside of spacetime. We all see pieces of the picture but none of us can see it all.
I understand the difficulties that the concept of Trinity is very hard to square with the Torah. But Jesus was pretty clear that He viewed Himself as having a very unique and unprecedented relationship to the Father. It was and still is scandalous. When it all came down to it, thatbis one of the main reasons He was executed. And I am NOT blaming the Jews for the crucifiction. All of humanity killed him (myself included) by our sins.

It is incomprehensible because it is illogical. An unforced theological error. The more mainstream Christianity double downs on silly theological errors like the Trinity, the more market share they lose to non-believers, non-mainstream Christianity, and other religions (mainly Islam).

 

[LouderVol]

It is incomprehensible because it is illogical. An unforced theological error. The more mainstream Christianity double downs on silly theological errors like the Trinity, the more market share they lose to non-believers, non-mainstream Christianity, and other religions (mainly Islam).

why is it illogical? to me its more illogical to expect a being far beyond our compression to fit not totally defined concepts we created. God must obey our rules and understanding of the existence around us because???

in science you only use terms and accept definitions from the relevant science. we don't apply physics to chemistry. we don't apply physics to quantum. why do we apply physics to God, or some higher being?

 

[bamawriter]

It is incomprehensible because it is illogical. An unforced theological error. The more mainstream Christianity double downs on silly theological errors like the Trinity, the more market share they lose to non-believers, non-mainstream Christianity, and other religions (mainly Islam).

The Trinity is professed by the Catholic Church, all of the Protestant denominations, and both the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches. How does one do anything other than "double down" on a belief that has been at the core of the faith for 2 millenia?

 

[Orangeslice13]

He was brought to the Romans by the priests. When given the opportunity the priests chose Barrabas instead of Jesus. Pilate washeds his hands of His blood.

Yes. The priest we’re looking for any excuse they could find because he was a threat to their power. But ultimately the charge was claiming to be king of the Jews.
And ultimately it had to be that way. More than a few of the psalms were fulfilled because of it.

 

[Orangeslice13]

The Trinity is professed by the Catholic Church, all of the Protestant denominations, and both the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches. How does one do anything other than "double down" on a belief that has been at the core of the faith for 2 millenia?

1700 years.
300 after the fact.
But I digress

 

[bamawriter]

1700 years.
300 after the fact.
But I digress

Are you of the belief that the concept of the Trinity did not exist before Nicaea?

 

[Orangeslice13]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness...



But...what piques my interest is the locales of all the ancient cities, and the domains of Eden. The singe river that watered Eden...as the headwater of the four rivers after leaving Eden, etc.

"10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin[d] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.[e] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates."

Some say because of the gold mentioned, etc., That eden encompassed east african areas south of egypt. And we certainly have no indications as to how large Eden actually was. But, two of the rivers are still identifiable in Iraq, and feed from headwaters in Turkey. It's all quite fascinating.

2 points.
How long was it between “in the beginning “ and “Now”.
And
You know for 3000 years the Jews have taught that G-d was speaking to the heavenly court. Angels and whatnot.
Not once has G-d ever said they were in error

And a 3rd
I’ve found the garden of Eden location interesting too.
A big part of the Jew in me says it’s allegory. But an actual boundary is listed for a real place. It is interesting

 

[Orangeslice13]

@Orangeslice13

Can we go back to the Ethiopian canon? What is it that you're seeing that's significantly different from the modern New Testament canon?

Hold on. I’m reading and catching up but yes. Let’s do that.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Hebrews 7-9 deals with the old law/new law in depth.

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

8 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[b]:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

I don’t consider Hebrews to be worthy of being in the Bible. Way too many errors and written by a 3rd hand source. To me it’s like Talmud. Interesting to read their thoughts but closer to trash than inspiration.