Holy Trinity Discussion

#26
#26
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Cause I didn't want to encourage the silly mental gymnastics Christians engage in to distance themselves from the horrific arts justified in the Old Testament. Christians like to play the game that God and Jesus are separate when it suits them. You can't believe Jesus is God then get offended when I say Jesus ordered genocides in the Old Testament.
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That's actually heretical, but you do you.
 
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#27
#27
volfanhill said:
The story
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The story didn't actually change. Time passed and God's plan came to fruition. We could not uphold His standards/the requirements for salvation, so He provided a path for sanctification by means of a substitute -- His son/part of the Trinity, to take our place.
 
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#28
#28
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Joshua
When the Israelites arrive in the Promised Land, they are commanded by God aka Jesus to destroy the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. The goal was to prevent the Israelites from being tempted to worship idols.

Numbers 33
God aka Jesus tells the Israelites to drive out the inhabitants of Canaan and destroy their high places, molten images, and figured stones. God aka Jesus warns that if the Israelites do not drive out the inhabitants, they will be harassed in the land.

Seven Nations
The Hebrew Bible refers to seven nations that lived in Canaan before the Israelites arrived. God aka Jesus instructed the Israelites to destroy these nations when they entered Canaan.


God aka Jesus ordered the Israelites to engage in a lot of ethnic cleansing. 7 nations being wiped out is crazy.
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Like in many other instances throughout scripture, God punishes the wicked. In the instances above, God used the Hebrew army to carry out His judgement.

But it's important to note that the people in question were not wicked simply because they were Canaanites, Hittites, etc. And the Hebrews did not destroy them all. Many Jebusites were still living in what would become Jerusalem beyond the time of David. Uriah the Hittite was a godly man that is presented as a counterpoint to David's sinfulness. A Canaanite woman is used as an illustration of Jesus' redemption for all people.
 
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#29
#29
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Taking the Trinity to it's logical conclusions isn't a gotcha. And just because early Church leaders have tried to sweep those conclusions to the Trinity under the rug doesn't make those logical conclusions invalid.

If what I said is wrong then how can Jesus be God but not involved in the Old Testament? Either there's ONE God or there's THREE. You can't try to separate Jesus from all the horrible stuff in the Old Testament but then turn around and say there's only ONE God.
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you are applying a pretty dry PHYSICAL explanation to a religious debate. essentially you are using the wrong language.

a slightly better, but still wrong, physical description of the Trinity would be a fractal relationship. There is one God, with three fractal "pieces" that reflect the whole, without being the whole. Having one of the fractal pieces do something, doesn't require the other fractal pieces to also do the same thing. the fractal description has its own issues, but it gets closer to better understanding than where you currently are.

the whole argument falls apart when you consider its all just human words, to try and describe a non-physical situation as humans understand it. which is admittedly not 100% correct.
 
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#34
#34
bamawriter said:
Like in many other instances throughout scripture, God punishes the wicked. In the instances above, God used the Hebrew army to carry out His judgement.

But it's important to note that the people in question were not wicked simply because they were Canaanites, Hittites, etc. And the Hebrews did not destroy them all. Many Jebusites were still living in what would become Jerusalem beyond the time of David. Uriah the Hittite was a godly man that is presented as a counterpoint to David's sinfulness. A Canaanite woman is used as an illustration of Jesus' redemption for all people.
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I agree with all that. I'm not even saying those acts can't be justified. My contention is with Christians that want to run away from these acts that look horrific to us by disassociating Jesus from it. Basically acting like the person who commanded the Hebrews was a totally different person rather than a manifestion of Jesus in another form.
 
#35
#35
Trinity - one Godhead with three personhoods. The Athanasian Creed gets us closest to a human explanation. Augustine wrote volumes on it. It is largely beyond us.

A Black Israelite cultist with no interest in trying to read or learn and whose only interest is trolling and trying to disprove an ancient religion with wikipedia pages and centuries old arguments that have been addressed through the ages is worth little more investment. It's not even good message board fodder- it's cringey reddit bleedover that should be laughed at.
 
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#36
#36
LouderVol said:
you are applying a pretty dry PHYSICAL explanation to a religious debate. essentially you are using the wrong language.

a slightly better, but still wrong, physical description of the Trinity would be a fractal relationship. There is one God, with three fractal "pieces" that reflect the whole, without being the whole. Having one of the fractal pieces do something, doesn't require the other fractal pieces to also do the same thing. the fractal description has its own issues, but it gets closer to better understanding than where you currently are.

the whole argument falls apart when you consider its all just human words, to try and describe a non-physical situation as humans understand it. which is admittedly not 100% correct.
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That just sounds like a fancy way of saying there's 3 Gods but I'll pretend it's still monotheism. You can't have it both ways. Jesus can't be totally separated from the actions of the Father and Christianity still call itself a 1 God religion.
 
#38
#38
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
More like the Bible says we wuz kangz. Cause it's the Bible that says Nubia/Kush and Egypt/Mizraim were siblings. Both sons of Ham. The progenitor of the black race according to mainstream biblical ideology.
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Oh yeah, here we go. Give it all to us now. This is the good stuff we're all waiting for.
 
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#39
#39
ButchPlz said:
Trinity - one Godhead with three personhoods. The Athanasian Creed gets us closest to a human explanation. Augustine wrote volumes on it. It is largely beyond us.
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LOL. So now it's beyond us because Christianity can't explain it's own convoluted ideology of how 3 Gods are actually 1 but we can't really hold the other 2 accountable for what the 1 did eventhough they're all actually one. LOL.

I don't blame yall by the way for not being able to explain this. The Trinity is an idea that cannot be logically justified. It is by definition illogical.
 
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#40
#40
ButchPlz said:
Trinity - one Godhead with three personhoods. The Athanasian Creed gets us closest to a human explanation. Augustine wrote volumes on it. It is largely beyond us.

A Black Israelite cultist with no interest in trying to read or learn and whose only interest is trolling and trying to disprove an ancient religion with wikipedia pages and centuries old arguments that have been addressed through the ages is worth little more investment. It's not even good message board fodder- it's cringey reddit bleedover that should be laughed at.
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He's a mess. There simply HAS to be a real division or who, exactly, was the other guy when Jesus prayed? (not that I care in the least what D4H would offer as an answer, just that the monolithic singularity can't possibly make sense in that interaction)
 
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#41
#41
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
I guess you're bailing on monotheism then cause if Jesus ain't calling the shots, who is? Another God that precedes Jesus? So do you pray to 1 God or 3 Gods?
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I prey on animals

I also don’t pretend to be an expert like some on here. They don’t realize how ordinary and average it makes them look.
 
#42
#42
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
That just sounds like a fancy way of saying there's 3 Gods but I'll pretend it's still monotheism. You can't have it both ways. Jesus can't be totally separated from the actions of the Father and Christianity still call itself a 1 God religion.
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no one but you has tried to totally separate Jesus from God.

the idea we are talking about is INSANELY complicated. you should see that it is not something that is easily communicated AT ALL. yet alone on an anonymous football message board. anything we communicate here is going to be a gross oversimplification of the matter.

similar to what is going on about the vastly simpler and well established physical history of the name a group of ancient people used. using imprecise generalizations creates more confusion if you try to sit down and then get technical.

* i will drop this to another thread if it comes up*
 
#43
#43
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
LOL. So now it's beyond us because Christianity can't explain it's own convoluted ideology of how 3 Gods are actually 1 but we can't really hold the other 2 accountable for what the 1 did eventhough they're all actually one. LOL.

I don't blame yall by the way for not being able to explain this. The Trinity is an idea that cannot be logically justified. It is by definition illogical.
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Not all Christian churches believe in the trinity.
 
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#44
#44
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
The Trinity is heretical? Cause all I'm doing is applying the logic of the Trinity. The Trinity says God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the same.

Don't tell me that your own ideology taken to its logical conclusions is heresy.
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You are doing nothing but looking ridiculous to the rest of us.
 
#45
#45
LouderVol said:
no one but you has tried to totally separate Jesus from God.

the idea we are talking about is INSANELY complicated. you should see that it is not something that is easily communicated AT ALL. yet alone on an anonymous football message board. anything we communicate here is going to be a gross oversimplification of the matter.
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No other religion has a tough time explaining this. Islam and Judaism say there's one God. No other parts or essences to God that makes him multiple people. Hinduism and older polytheist religions say there are many Gods. Why is Christianity the only religion where the concept of God is complicated or difficult to explain?

Either Jesus was involved in the horrific acts ordered in the Old Testament or Christianity is a religion of multiple gods. You can't logically have it any other way.
 
#46
#46
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
No other religion has a tough time explaining this. Islam and Judaism say there's one God. No other parts or essences to God that makes him multiple people. Hinduism and older polytheist religions say there are many Gods. Why is Christianity the only religion where the concept of God is complicated or difficult to explain?

Either Jesus was involved in the horrific acts ordered in the Old Testament or Christianity is a religion of multiple gods. You can't logically have it any other way.
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God doesn’t have difficulty explaining who He is or His nature. If you were sincere, you’d dig deep into His Word for discernment and understanding. The nature of God—God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit—is indissoluble. IMG_5331.jpeg
The Shield of the Trinity is not an all-encompassing schematic diagram of the structure of God, but it illustrates the relationship and correlation of the persons in the Godhead. It is the Father who begets, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.

Was Jesus created? No, He was present with the Father when man was formed out of the earth. First-person pronouns are used in Genesis 1 and 3, more specifically, God said, “let us make man in our image“ and “the man has now become like one of us,” respectively.

You’re also confusing Jesus’s purpose by flip-flopping from New to Old Testament. Jesus didn’t come to abolish the law, He came to fulfill it. In other words, His coming doesn’t absolve man from obedience to the law, but that perfect adherence is no longer necessary (and was never attainable after the fall) for salvation.
 
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#47
#47
I feel like C.S. Lewis has done the best job of explaining the relationship of Father-Son-Spirit that I have ever read. Here is a link to his excerpt from Mere Christianity and a link I thought was well written:

  • "God is a Being which contains three Persons while remaining one Being….The First Person is called the Father and the Second the Son. We say the First begets or produces the Second; we call it begetting, not making, because what He produces is of the same kind as Himself…. The Son exists because the Father exists: but there was never a time before the Father produced the Son….(He is always), so to speak, streaming forth from the Father, like light from a lamp… or thoughts from a mind. He is the self-expression of the Father – what the Father has to say. And there was never a time when He was not saying it….Much the most important thing to know is that it is a relationship of love. The Father delights in the Son; the Son looks up to His Father….What the Christians mean by the statement "God is love" (1John 4:8) ... is that the living, dynamic activity of love has been going on in God forever and has created everything else….In Christianity God is not a static thing… but a dynamic, pulsating activity, a life, almost a kind of drama. Almost, if you will not think me irreverent, a kind of dance" (pages 172-175).
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    The union between the Father and the Son is such a live concrete thing that this union itself is also a Person. I know this is almost inconceivable, but look at thus. You know that among human beings, when they get together in a family, or a club, or a trade union, people talk about the ‘spirit’ of that family, or club, or trade union. They talk about it's ‘spirit’ because the individual members, when they are together, do really develop particular ways of talking and behaving which they would not have if they were apart. It is as if a sort of communal personality came into existence. Of course, it is not a real person: it is only rather like a person. But that is just one of the differences between God and us. What grows out of the joint life of the Father and the Son is a real Person, is in fact the Third of the three Persons who are God…. This third Person is called, in technical language, the Holy Ghost or the ‘spirit’ of God. Do not be worried or surprised if you find it (or Him) rather vaguer or more shadowy in your mind than the other two. I think there is a reason why that must be so. In the Christian life you are not usually looking at Him. He is always acting through you. If you think of the Father as something ‘out there’, in front of you, and of the Son as someone standing at your side, helping you to pray, trying to turn you into another son, then you have to think of the third Person as something inside you, or behind you. Perhaps some people might find it easier to begin with the third Person and work backwards: God is love, and that love works through men – especially through the whole community of Christians. But this spirit of love, from all eternity, is a love going on between the Father and the Son” (Pages 175–176).
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    Spiritual (relational) Formation implications: As the Holy Spirit catches us up into “Their dance”, it makes sense that the way we relate to each other begins to approximate the way “They” relate:
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      “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control” (Galatians 5:22-23).
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      Being filled w the Spirit as the prerequisite for Christian marital and family = relational life (Ephesians 5:18 - 6:9).
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      “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Eph. 4:1-3).
    • -
      “I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as you loved Me” (John 17:23).
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C.S. Lewis and Mere Christianity: The Trinity (The Three-Personal God)
 
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#50
#50
Y’all are arguing with a guy who believes black people were here before Columbus and that the Hebrew people are/were black. He buys into every YouTube/Facebook pseudo scientist he can find.

His views could best be described as Ancient Aliens for black people
 
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