Holy Trinity Discussion

#79
#79
John 17 for anyone who is interested in what we are talking about
Yeshua clearly spells out his position as pre existing and subservient to G-d and that you can be one with them just as he is one with the father.


Now anyone wanting to understand what messiah is saying would want to look at how those words were used then and not how we use them now. What messiah is saying is he is in perfect alignment with the will of G-d and that you can be too.
 
#80
#80
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
With regard to the color of the Ancient Hebrews the argument that they were black is based on the Bible and known historical record. According to the Bible, both Moses and Joseph were mistaken for Egyptians. Thus we can logically conclude that there were no visible physical differences between the Ancient Hebrews and the Ancient Egyptians during the time they were in Egypt. We also know from the Bible that the Ancient Egyptians were considered one of the sons of Ham (father of the black race) along with Kush (biblical name for Ancient Nubia). We also know from the accounts of Ancient Greek historians like Herodutus that the Ancient Egyptians were described as having "black skin and wooly hair" like the Ancient Nubians (aka Ethiopians to the Ancient Greeks). So if the Ancient Egyptians were black according to the Bible and historical record and if Hebrews like Moses and Joseph were mistaken for being Egyptians rather than Israelites then it must logically follow that the Ancient Hebrews were also black.

With regard to black people preceding Columbus in the Americas, the evidence is numerous. I'll start with the most scientifically accepted piece of evidence. LUZIA: America’s OLDEST Skeleton is a “Black” WOMAN

agencia.fapesp.br

The new face of Luzia and the Lagoa Santa people

Study by 72 researchers from eight countries concludes that the Lagoa Santa people are descendants of Clovis culture migrants from North America. Distinctly African features attributed to Luzia were wrong.
agencia.fapesp.br agencia.fapesp.br

The oldest human remains found in the Americas is the fossil of Luzia woman. Found in Brazil, the anthropologists that found the remains said that the skull didn't look like the skulls of the Indians found in the region. But instead of looked like the skull of a negroid woman. So according to mainstream science the oldest human fossil found in the Americas is that of a black woman.

Now the second piece of evidence that shows black people were in the Americas comes to Christopher Columbus own journal of his second voyage to the Americas. In modern day Dominican Republic/Haiti he said that the Native Indians told him: “Black-skinned people had come from the southeast in boats, trading in gold-tipped spears.”

www.sun-sentinel.com

SCHOLAR: COLUMBUS’ JOURNAL BEARS EVIDENCE OF BLACKS IN AMERICAS

FORT LAUDERDALE — Controversial scholar Ivan Van Sertima, who theorizes that Africans came to the Americas before Columbus, discovered Fort Lauderdale on Thursday. Van Sertima was given a rec…
www.sun-sentinel.com www.sun-sentinel.com

And if you want even more evidence there are the Olmec heads which were found in Mexico which are the remains of the oldest civilization in the Americas. This is how those heads looked.

View attachment 713080


Looks like a black man if you ask me. And when they were first discovered the earliest Europeans thought the same thing. And because I know yall will lie to yourselves and act like this isn't clearly a black head. Let's look at how the back of the head looks.

View attachment 713081

Yes you're seeing that right. It's braids. The Olmec heads have braided hair in the back. So you're gonna tell me these heads with broad flat noses, full thick lips, and braided hair ain't depicting black people?


When you put all the evidence together from the earliest fossil remains of Luzia woman to the earliest civilization in the Olmecs, and Columbus own account its obvious black people were in the Americas before Columbus.
Click to expand...

1736381911722.jpeg

I don't believe y'all have the market on full lips and broad noses as cornered as you would have us believe. Have a look at reality, in the form of actual descendants of the indigenous peoples of Central and South America.

Some light viewing for you.

 
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#81
#81
Orangeslice13 said:
Because the writing doesn’t line up with your description therefore your statement is inaccurate
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Huh?

John 10:30-38

New International Version

​

30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
 
#84
#84
PEPPERJAX said:
One in purpose but my belief is that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are separate.
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Close.
The “Holy Ghost” is the father. There are only the father and the son. One begotten of the other. But separated from one another.
Think of it like this. G-d is fire. There is only one fire. Yeshua is an ember of the fire. The only begotten ember. The authority of the fire and power but nothing on it’s own.

That is the relationship between father and son.
 
#86
#86
OrangeTsar said:
Huh?

John 10:30-38​

​

New International Version​

​

​

30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
Click to expand...
I do like how you completely ignore the explanation that messiah gives that does away with their false understanding of….which they knew was false btw…..and your false understanding too.

Read the rest and then ask yourself if you’re G-d too.
 
#89
#89
PEPPERJAX said:
One in purpose but my belief is that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are separate.
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Then you are not in agreement with the Nicene Creed and are in heresy. Which is of course well within you prerogative. You just have to recognize that every established denomination will view your beliefs as in grave error.
 
#90
#90
OrangeTsar said:
And that means they are not a Christian Church.
No other denomination recognizes them as such.
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From the third chapter of Matthew below. Btw, I don’t need to be recognized by other denominations validating my beliefs. It’s pretty meaningless actually.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

God talking to his son right?

Also, I’ve always liked your biblical takes in other threads too.
 
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#91
#91
PEPPERJAX said:
I’ve been a member my entire life.
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Which makes you a member of an organization calling itself a church but that is not in communion with the Church Universal. I pray that you will eventually see the error in your beliefs.

Also, see the Athanasian Creed from one of the earliest Church councils

We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.

For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.

But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.

What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.

Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.

The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.

Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit: And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal; as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.

Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit: And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.

Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God: And yet there are not three gods, but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord: And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.

As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten; the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father; the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.

And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other; but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.

Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.

It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh.

For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God’s Son, is both God and man.

He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother — existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body; equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.

Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.

He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.

“He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.
 
#92
#92
PEPPERJAX said:
From the third chapter of Matthew below. Btw, I don’t need to be recognized by other denominations validating my beliefs. It’s pretty meaningless actually.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

God talking to his son right?

Also, I’ve always liked your biblical takes in other threads too.
Click to expand...
FWIW, I have great respect for the way all Mormons I have known have lived their life accoyto their professed beliefs. They are almost universally among the most upstanding and honorable individuals I have known. If all members of mainline churches behaved with the same integrity and commitment, the world is oils be a much better place.
I think the ultimate dividing point is what one believes about the nature and timing of God’s scriptural revelation of Himself. I believe God’s written revelation was complete and finished with the last writing of the Apostles (including Paul). The books was complete when John put down his quill on the Isle of Patmos. Jesus is called “The Word” for a reason. It was all God had to say and when His last followers passed; nothing more need to be said.
Peace
 
#93
#93
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
en.m.wikipedia.org

Trinity - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org



How can the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit exist AS ONE ENTITY co-equal in "action and will" but Jesus be absent when God was telling Moses what to do?

You either worship 1 God or 3 Gods. So which is it?
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My car has one engine. It is made up of roughly 40 parts, combustion chamber, cylinder head, pistons, crankshaft, camshaft, timing chain, etc.

They serve different functions, but I still only have one engine not 40 separate engines.
 
#94
#94
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
I guess I have to explain Christian ideology to Christians. Well here you go.

So Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. That means yall worship only ONE God. However, that God comes in three different versions (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). This is an ideology called "the Trinity". Christians don't believe these are 3 different people but rather one individual manifesting himself in 3 different forms. That means Jesus is not only the Son but also the Father and the Holy Spirit. So when the Father (aka God) was ordering Moses to take his people out of Egypt that was actually Jesus ordering him. Since Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are the same person.

I know it's all very confusing but this is the justification Christians make to believe Jesus is God while also maintaining they are monotheists worshiping ONE God instead of three. Going by this logic then the inspiration behind the Old Testament was Jesus because Jesus is God aka the Father.

Get it now?
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So this is what you do between crazy football predictions.
 
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#96
#96
Vol8188 said:
You need real evidence to draw such a bold conclusion. Not “I think this statue looks black!” or “someone told Columbus they saw a black man!”. I find stories of people throughout history claiming they saw aliens, space ships, etc. That’s why what you’re doing is the same tactic as Ancient Aliens, just for black people. “Hey look this statue looks like a space ship” just replace space ship with “black man”

Your problem is you attempt to expand black to include everyone who isn’t white. Last time we went down this road you tried proclaiming numerous Asian populations were black. The bones you mentioned in South America being a prime example of this. “Mainstream historians” you claimed called them black. In fact, they called them Asian. You do the same with your Americas claim in general. You’re attempting to take people of Asian decent and proclaim “black!”. It’s nonsense

If you had DNA showing me a skeleton in America from x number of years ago that was closer related to Africans of that time, I’d agree with you. But heresay from hundreds of years ago nor your interpretation of the ethnicity of a statue are not the level of evidence I’d need for such a claim.
Click to expand...

Are these women black to you or not?

1736392969367.jpeg

They're not from Africa by the way. They're from the island of Vanuatu in the Pacific. Genetically they are most closely related to Asians. So one could theoretically say they're Asian. But their phenotype is clearly black. They have dark brown skin, flat broad noses, full lips, and tightly curled kinky hair. All features common among people commonly classified as black.

I define blackness based on PHENOTYPE not geography. It's why nobody would say a pale skin Arab from North Africa is black because he's African. Similarly you ain't non-black simply because you are Asian. If an individual has dark skin, full lips, and tightly curled afro hair most people would say that person is black regardless of what continent they are native to.

Race is based on physical features not geography.
 
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#97
#97
Orangeslice13 said:
If you think pigmentation on the DNA chain matters in anyway to the G-d of A, I and J in any way then you’re just not very smart.

DNA doesn’t lie.
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DNA doesn't lie about what? All DNA does is tell us about your ancestry not your race. For example look at Adolph Hitler. His Y-DNA haplogroup is E1b1b. DNA Tests: Hitler Descended From Jews, Africans?

E1b1b is most commonly found in Africa. Primarily in the Horn of Africa in countries like Somalia. Does this make Adolf Hitler black?

The peoples of Papau New Guinea look like this:

1736393787498.jpeg



But genetically Europeans are more closely related to Africans than these folks. The black people of the Pacific Islands despite looking black are genetically closer to Asians than they are Africans.

DNA doesn't tell you anything about race. All it tells us is about ancestry which doesn't necessarily correlate to phenotype which is influenced by the environment as well as genetics.
 
#99
#99
tbh said:
View attachment 713117

I don't believe y'all have the market on full lips and broad noses as cornered as you would have us believe. Have a look at reality, in the form of actual descendants of the indigenous peoples of Central and South America.

Some light viewing for you.

Click to expand...


Now find me the South American with kinky braided hair like this.

1736394153630.jpeg


What you posted of South Americans with broad features would be like me finding pictures of Africans with straight hair (of which there are plenty) like this young lady...

1736394389647.jpeg


And claiming straight hair is a feature common in black Africans. It isn't. Most black people have a much curlier and kinkier hair texture than this. Similarly broad noses and full lips are not common in Central and South America. If they did we would see them here in America considering there are millions of Mexican immigrants. And yet I rarely see Mexicans with negroid facial features. You can't try to use outlier physical features in a community when all the Olmec heads show these features which are rare in Central and South America but are common in black populations.
 
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#100
#100
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
Now find me the South American with kinky braided hair like this.

View attachment 713156


What you posted of South Americans with broad features would be like me finding pictures of Africans with straight hair (of which there are plenty) like this young lady...

View attachment 713158


And claiming straight hair is a feature common in black Africans. It isn't. Most black people have a much curlier and kinkier hair texture than this. Similarly broad noses and full lips are not common in Central and South America. If they did we would see them here in America considering there are millions of Mexican immigrants. And yet I rarely see Mexicans with negroid facial features. You can't try to use outlier physical features in a community when all the Olmec heads show these features which are rare in Central and South America but are common in black populations.
Click to expand...

Lmfao “it’s not just the braids”….and now we are back to “only black people have braids!”
 
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