How can the talent debate even exist?

[Spartacavolus]

I feel like this is Groundhog day and One Flew Over the Kookoos Nest wrapped up together. Maybe add a touch of Idiot Abroad and there it is.

 

[sjt18]

What should (but probably won't) end the debate over whether Dooley or Jones inherited the "better" roster was in a recent article on UTSports.com. It said UT played 13 Fr last year and would play the same or more this year. That IS... IS... a fairly bare cupboard. It is a difficult roster situation to deal with to say the very least.

However the cupboard was MORE bare when Dooley arrived and so much so that he played about 18 Fr in each of his first two years at UT.

So while the roster Jones inherited was not "great"... it still had more to it than the '10 or '11 rosters in terms of upperclassmen good enough to play in the SEC or at least fend off Fr.

This does not account for JUCO's or transfers that Dooley also had to play. Jones was not as dependent on them either.

 

[oregonvol]

Can't decide if you're willfully ignorant, delusional or just a liar....

Even once I sort past all the grade school insults that every debate here seems to inevitably devolve into, you still seem to have a remarkably confused viewpoint.

It should be pretty simple really. Either Tennessee had the talent to beat Vanderbilt or they didn’t. Either the coaches bear responsibility for the loss or they don’t. You claim to believe the former, in each case, but then, why are you even arguing? Why all the schoolyard histrionics? Why post half truths such as that Andre Hal ran a 4.40 (and implying that none of our players have that kind of speed) but never mentionining that his official time was actually 4.50? Or saying that safety Kenny Ladler “tested very well”, but omitting that his 40 time was 4.70 (one of the slowest among all DBs at the combine)?

If the coaches bear the responsibility, then why aren’t we talking about them, rather than players who are no longer here? Why are we talking about combine workouts rather than deficiencies in game planning, preparation, and strategy that need to improve moving forward?

Did you not resurrect a dormant thread (“Just to keep the debate alive” as you said. What debate are you referring to, if not Vanderbilt’s talent vs. UT’s?) to tout a couple Vanderbilt players’ unofficial 40 times and then state that our linemen’s draft stocks have dropped? What purpose could you have other than suggesting Vanderbilt had a talent advantage? Why else would you post that? What other possible relevance would it have?

But I get that this argument is pointless. I get that this is just a warm-up for the draft. I know we can expect that as soon as any Vanderbilt player gets drafted, one of the “real UT fans”, like Spartacavolus or KBVol, will almost inevitably come on here to crow about it.

“Hey, Vanderbilt had a WR taken! Did UT have a WR taken? I didn’t think so!”

“I’m just saying because I’m such a UT fan and I really think that the Vanderbilt game was a bad loss, really, but I just want to talk up their players any chance I get and, just, you know, keep the debate alive.”

“Wait what? You actually want to debate me? Well, uh, screw you and you have cooties.”

And it keeps going and going and going...

 

[KBVol]

Even once I sort past all the grade school insults that every debate here seems to inevitably devolve into, you still seem to have a remarkably confused viewpoint.

It should be pretty simple really. Either Tennessee had the talent to beat Vanderbilt or they didn’t. Either the coaches bear responsibility for the loss or they don’t. You claim to believe the former, in each case, but then, why are you even arguing? Why all the schoolyard histrionics? Why post half truths such as that Andre Hal ran a 4.40 (and implying that none of our players have that kind of speed) but never mentionining that his official time was actually 4.50? Or saying that safety Kenny Ladler “tested very well”, but omitting that his 40 time was 4.70 (one of the slowest among all DBs at the combine)?

If the coaches bear the responsibility, then why aren’t we talking about them, rather than players who are no longer here? Why are we talking about combine workouts rather than deficiencies in game planning, preparation, and strategy that need to improve moving forward?

Did you not resurrect a dormant thread (“Just to keep the debate alive” as you said. What debate are you referring to, if not Vanderbilt’s talent vs. UT’s?) to tout a couple Vanderbilt players’ unofficial 40 times and then state that our linemen’s draft stocks have dropped? What purpose could you have other than suggesting Vanderbilt had a talent advantage? Why else would you post that? What other possible relevance would it have?

But I get that this argument is pointless. I get that this is just a warm-up for the draft. I know we can expect that as soon as any Vanderbilt player gets drafted, one of the “real UT fans”, like Spartacavolus or KBVol, will almost inevitably come on here to crow about it.

“Hey, Vanderbilt had a WR taken! Did UT have a WR taken? I didn’t think so!”

“I’m just saying because I’m such a UT fan and I really think that the Vanderbilt game was a bad loss, really, but I just want to talk up their players any chance I get and, just, you know, keep the debate alive.”

“Wait what? You actually want to debate me? Well, uh, screw you and you have cooties.”

And it keeps going and going and going...

Guess your search for all the posts that I never actually wrote didn't materialize eh?

No, it doesn't go on. Done with your foolishness. Please don't feel the need to respond to my future posts. Like I haven't for months prior to 2 days ago, I won't be responding to yours.

 

[Doyle Hargraves]

Even once I sort past all the grade school insults that every debate here seems to inevitably devolve into, you still seem to have a remarkably confused viewpoint.

It should be pretty simple really. Either Tennessee had the talent to beat Vanderbilt or they didn’t. Either the coaches bear responsibility for the loss or they don’t. You claim to believe the former, in each case, but then, why are you even arguing? Why all the schoolyard histrionics? Why post half truths such as that Andre Hal ran a 4.40 (and implying that none of our players have that kind of speed) but never mentionining that his official time was actually 4.50? Or saying that safety Kenny Ladler “tested very well”, but omitting that his 40 time was 4.70 (one of the slowest among all DBs at the combine)?

If the coaches bear the responsibility, then why aren’t we talking about them, rather than players who are no longer here? Why are we talking about combine workouts rather than deficiencies in game planning, preparation, and strategy that need to improve moving forward?

Did you not resurrect a dormant thread (“Just to keep the debate alive” as you said. What debate are you referring to, if not Vanderbilt’s talent vs. UT’s?) to tout a couple Vanderbilt players’ unofficial 40 times and then state that our linemen’s draft stocks have dropped? What purpose could you have other than suggesting Vanderbilt had a talent advantage? Why else would you post that? What other possible relevance would it have?

But I get that this argument is pointless. I get that this is just a warm-up for the draft. I know we can expect that as soon as any Vanderbilt player gets drafted, one of the “real UT fans”, like Spartacavolus or KBVol, will almost inevitably come on here to crow about it.

“Hey, Vanderbilt had a WR taken! Did UT have a WR taken? I didn’t think so!”

“I’m just saying because I’m such a UT fan and I really think that the Vanderbilt game was a bad loss, really, but I just want to talk up their players any chance I get and, just, you know, keep the debate alive.”

“Wait what? You actually want to debate me? Well, uh, screw you and you have cooties.”

And it keeps going and going and going...

Ladies and gentlemen, this is the moment Oregonvol landed the winning punch.

 

[KBVol]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is the moment Oregonvol landed the winning punch.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is the moment Oregonvol landed the winning punch.

One of the most negative posters on here agreeing with arguably THE most negative posters in here....who saw that coming?

If you believe the winning camp is the one that says UT team 117 had a ton of talent, legit 4 stars bounding all over the place, talent gap between UT and Vandy was miles wide as usual and Butch and Staff bore the overwhelming majority, if not 100% of the blame for the losses, especially vs Vandy, because they did a really poor coaching job save the SCar game, maybe the Georgia game.... then have at it, debate won.

However, if you think there are more factors than the singular idea that Butch and his staff suck and did a really poor job coaching a very talented team then the debate is far from won. If you think that other factors leading to 4 bad blowout losses and the loss to Vandy might have been .....

1. Team 117 was at best a middle of the road SEC team talent -wise that was slow and relatively unathletic that, based in visual evidence belied its collective "high school star rating"

2. Team 117 could not overcome the mental baggage and losers mentality from the 3 previous historic losing seasons

3. The talent gap between team 117 and last year's Vandy team was significantly narrowed and that, in fact, Vandy held the talent advantage at more than one position (eg, QB, WR, DB) and was a large contributing factor to that loss

4. While you believe that Butch is the right guy for the job and you are hopeful, you're still uncertain given the awful performances in the blowout and Vandy losses and can acknowledge (and have acknowledged) that he was also culpable in those losses and that the jury is still out on whether he can be successful regarding wins and losses at UT .....

Then your declaration that a knockout punch was thrown is about as legitimate as the boxing judges decision giving the South Korean boxer the win over Roy Jones, Jr in the 1988 Seoul Korean Summer Olympics.

 

[Doyle Hargraves]

One of the most negative posters on here agreeing with arguably THE most negative posters in here....who saw that coming?

If you believe the winning camp is the one that says UT team 117 had a ton of talent, legit 4 stars bounding all over the place, talent gap between UT and Vandy was miles wide as usual and Butch and Staff bore the overwhelming majority, if not 100% of the blame for the losses, especially vs Vandy, because they did a really poor coaching job save the SCar game, maybe the Georgia game.... then have at it, debate won.

However, if you think there are more factors than the singular idea that Butch and his staff suck and did a really poor job coaching a very talented team then the debate is far from won. If you think that other factors leading to 4 bad blowout losses and the loss to Vandy might have been .....

1. Team 117 was at best a middle of the road SEC team talent -wise that was slow and relatively unathletic that, based in visual evidence belied its collective "high school star rating"

2. Team 117 could not overcome the mental baggage and losers mentality from the 3 previous historic losing seasons

3. The talent gap between team 117 and last year's Vandy team was significantly narrowed and that, in fact, Vandy held the talent advantage at more than one position (eg, QB, WR, DB) and was a large contributing factor to that loss

4. While you believe that Butch is the right guy for the job and you are hopeful, you're still uncertain given the awful performances in the blowout and Vandy losses and can acknowledge (and have acknowledged) that he was also culpable in those losses and that the jury is still out on whether he can be successful regarding wins and losses at UT .....

Then your declaration that a knockout punch was thrown is about as legitimate as the boxing judges decision giving the South Korean boxer the win over Roy Jones, Jr in the 1988 Seoul Korean Summer Olympics.

Sorry, forgot to post to you not to respond to me because I am done with you.

Edit- tldr

 

[KBVol]

Sorry, forgot to post to you not to respond to me because I am done with you.

Edit- tldr

Done

 

[Oskie Volum]

One of the most negative posters on here agreeing with arguably THE most negative posters in here....who saw that coming?

If you believe the winning camp is the one that says UT team 117 had a ton of talent, legit 4 stars bounding all over the place, talent gap between UT and Vandy was miles wide as usual and Butch and Staff bore the overwhelming majority, if not 100% of the blame for the losses, especially vs Vandy, because they did a really poor coaching job save the SCar game, maybe the Georgia game.... then have at it, debate won.

However, if you think there are more factors than the singular idea that Butch and his staff suck and did a really poor job coaching a very talented team then the debate is far from won. If you think that other factors leading to 4 bad blowout losses and the loss to Vandy might have been .....

1. Team 117 was at best a middle of the road SEC team talent -wise that was slow and relatively unathletic that, based in visual evidence belied its collective "high school star rating"

2. Team 117 could not overcome the mental baggage and losers mentality from the 3 previous historic losing seasons

3. The talent gap between team 117 and last year's Vandy team was significantly narrowed and that, in fact, Vandy held the talent advantage at more than one position (eg, QB, WR, DB) and was a large contributing factor to that loss

4. While you believe that Butch is the right guy for the job and you are hopeful, you're still uncertain given the awful performances in the blowout and Vandy losses and can acknowledge (and have acknowledged) that he was also culpable in those losses and that the jury is still out on whether he can be successful regarding wins and losses at UT .....

Then your declaration that a knockout punch was thrown is about as legitimate as the boxing judges decision giving the South Korean boxer the win over Roy Jones, Jr in the 1988 Seoul Korean Summer Olympics.

It's funny how u excuse CBJ for all the above, and yet u find ways to bash Dooley, every opportunity u can, who had plenty of higher hurdles to face. Just ur #2 excuse above is trumped by Dooley's first team full of players that went through the grind of being on their 3rd coach in 3 yrs, and combined with Kiffen leaving the way he did. CBJ was handed arguably one of the best, most experienced, OLs in the country going into the season, and they under performed. That's not on the players that's on the coaching. If any blame goes anywhere beyond the coaching staff it's the people calling for a new staff after 3 yrs, and Hart for listening.

At the end of the day CBJ had TWO weeks to have the team prepared to WIN, and that has nothing to do with Dooley. Including Dobbs, who had playing time. He flat out did not have them ready, and got out coached in Neyland. Nothing u say about the talent will change that cause even if u want to bash, and degrade our players talent it can only get as low as equal to Vandy's.

CBJ needs to be held accountable from day 1, and he doesn't get paid "excuse" or "in time" money. But "WIN NOW" money. UT doesn't have time to give him time. He was handed a fresh clean slate. Though he may be a good coach he unfortunately does not have the time to "learn on the job" in the SEC. If he doesn't step up this season and at the MINIMUM go to a bowl game we can be in serious trouble going into the future. NIKE isn't going to get us out of that hole.
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[KBVol]

It's funny how u excuse CBJ for all the above, and yet u find ways to bash Dooley, every opportunity u can, who had plenty of higher hurdles to face. Just ur #2 excuse above is trumped by Dooley's first team full of players that went through the grind of being on their 3rd coach in 3 yrs, and combined with Kiffen leaving the way he did. CBJ was handed arguably one of the best, most experienced, OLs in the country going into the season, and they under performed. That's not on the players that's on the coaching. If any blame goes anywhere beyond the coaching staff it's the people calling for a new staff after 3 yrs, and Hart for listening.

At the end of the day CBJ had TWO weeks to have the team prepared to WIN, and that has nothing to do with Dooley. Including Dobbs, who had playing time. He flat out did not have them ready, and got out coached in Neyland. Nothing u say about the talent will change that cause even if u want to bash, and degrade our players talent it can only get as low as equal to Vandy's.

CBJ needs to be held accountable from day 1, and he doesn't get paid "excuse" or "in time" money. But "WIN NOW" money. UT doesn't have time to give him time. He was handed a fresh clean slate. Though he may be a good coach he unfortunately does not have the time to "learn on the job" in the SEC. If he doesn't step up this season and at the MINIMUM go to a bowl game we can be in serious trouble going into the future. NIKE isn't going to get us out of that hole.
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Wait a minute. So you want Butch held accountable from day 1, that UT football has no time to wait..... but you've argued nonstop about how 3 years wasn't nearly enough time for Derek, that he needed another year or 2 to get it turned around.

I included bullet point #2 because a. It's true and b. Because I remember hearing Daniel Hood recently on the radio with John Brice and Chris Low say how they, the players from the Dooley era had come to expect bad things to happen, for breaks to not go their way, to lose in tight situations. He recounted how he "knew the Vandy 4th down call was gonna get overturned". He said that all the losing, all the negative experiences of the past 3-4 years led him to "just knowing" that no matter what, that call was gonna get over turned and that they (the defense) were going to have to go back on the field rather than the offense getting into the "victory formation".

Nobody's giving Butch a pass. While I fully support Butch, after the bad losses last year I have my doubts. But I'll continue to pull like hell for the guy, to hope he's the right coach, just like I did with Dooley for 2 and a half years.... until he made it very clear that he not only wasn't the solution, but was indeed the biggest problem.

Most everybody is just defining the obstacles that Butch has to overcome to get the program turned back around, many on the field and a few off the field (eg, high school coaches relationships for one and the APR issue which, had the team not turned it around under Butch and the guy now running the Thornton Center, they would be facing a bowl ban and loss of scholarships according to Coach Doug Matthews per his radio show last Sunday).

I, and most guys on here, have acknowledged how bad a situation Dooley was left. It was a grease fire thanks to Kiffin and Hamilton. Evidently it's too much to ask that you recognize and acknowledge the tire fire Butch inherited after the 3 historically bad seasons that was the Dooley era. We'll continue to agree to disagree I'm sure.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is the moment Oregonvol landed the winning punch.

Basic ff. Dude is debating with nobody and getting props for it.

Not one person has said we shouldn't have won that game. The rest is a bunch of madeup bull**** by a simpleminded poster that repeats the same thing over and over regardless of the debate.

Fact still remains Vandy will have more players drafted this year and next year, and several more speed positions, than UT. No fluff or drama queen junk. Just reality. Too hard for some to deal with.

 

[Doyle Hargraves]

Basic ff. Dude is debating with nobody and getting props for it.

Not one person has said we shouldn't have won that game. The rest is a bunch of madeup bull**** by a simpleminded poster that repeats the same thing over and over regardless of the debate.

Fact still remains Vandy will have more players drafted this year and next year, and several more speed positions, than UT. No fluff or drama queen junk. Just reality. Too hard for some to deal with.

Dude is debating with no one because the idiot that brought it back up for debate refuses to debate him.

 

[butchna]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is the moment Oregonvol landed the winning punch.

I believe every association has ruled that if you use the below the belt "COOTIES" punch...you're disqualified and can't be licensed for future bouts inch:
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[KBVol]

Dude is debating with no one because the idiot that brought it back up for debate refuses to debate him.

Stopped debating with a guy who resorts to deliberately lying about my positions to prop his up

 

[Spartacavolus]

Dude is debating with no one because the idiot that brought it back up for debate refuses to debate him.

All kb did was list info from the draft. People have been saying UT had more talent and its highly debatable. Seems to me people can't admit the talent gap was minimal at best, in either direction. Actually they will have 4-5 drafted at wr and db over next 2 years. speed and skill positions. We won't have a a single one. That's 2 yrs in a row. As much as you want to gloss that over or twist it to your liking, the draft results will support the info given.

Still haven't seen kb use excuses for losing that game and he keeps getting accused of it. Its bs. And typical. Orevol cant get that thru her head. Just keeps saying the same thing over and over, regardless of the point.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Stopped debating with a guy who resorts to deliberately lying about my positions to prop his up

Common VN theme. Been dealing with it for years. The mentally strained take that route. And they tend to repeat it often.

 

[Oskie Volum]

Wait a minute. So you want Butch held accountable from day 1, that UT football has no time to wait..... but you've argued nonstop about how 3 years wasn't nearly enough time for Derek, that he needed another year or 2 to get it turned around.

I included bullet point #2 because a. It's true and b. Because I remember hearing Daniel Hood recently on the radio with John Brice and Chris Low say how they, the players from the Dooley era had come to expect bad things to happen, for breaks to not go their way, to lose in tight situations. He recounted how he "knew the Vandy 4th down call was gonna get overturned". He said that all the losing, all the negative experiences of the past 3-4 years led him to "just knowing" that no matter what, that call was gonna get over turned and that they (the defense) were going to have to go back on the field rather than the offense getting into the "victory formation".

Nobody's giving Butch a pass. While I fully support Butch, after the bad losses last year I have my doubts. But I'll continue to pull like hell for the guy, to hope he's the right coach, just like I did with Dooley for 2 and a half years.... until he made it very clear that he not only wasn't the solution, but was indeed the biggest problem.

Most everybody is just defining the obstacles that Butch has to overcome to get the program turned back around, many on the field and a few off the field (eg, high school coaches relationships for one and the APR issue which, had the team not turned it around under Butch and the guy now running the Thornton Center, they would be facing a bowl ban and loss of scholarships according to Coach Doug Matthews per his radio show last Sunday).

I, and most guys on here, have acknowledged how bad a situation Dooley was left. It was a grease fire thanks to Kiffin and Hamilton. Evidently it's too much to ask that you recognize and acknowledge the tire fire Butch inherited after the 3 historically bad seasons that was the Dooley era. We'll continue to agree to disagree I'm sure.

KB...At the end of the day we will never agree on the gravity of the situations either guy walked into. Yall act like Dooley took over a team on the top of its game and brought it down instead of having 3 seasons that were about the same to the 2 seasons prior. He wasn't the first coach to have 2 5-7 seasons in the last decade.

CBJ is having to get the football program better, and Dooley had to not only fix the program on the field but be apart of rebuilding UTs AD Dept as whole. This is what makes UTs situation at the time totally different than other major programs that r down other than maybe Miami. Which do you think needs to be truly fixed first?? I know the football program is the money, but imo fixing the AD comes first for long term stability.

In a nut shell CBJ had to clean up after Dooley, but Dooley had to clean up after years and years worth of AD mismanagement. That's why we will not come to an agreement. I'm not as tunneled visioned as most, and don't see Dooley's era as only the Football program. Like CBJ has the luxury of.

If the players felt all was going to go bad do you think that's all on Dooley?? Did Dooley inherit a team full of players that have been winning?? You think the players that just went through the firing of Fulmer and what Kiffen did were the easiest ones to work with?? Dooley may not have done a good job of getting that fixed, but at the end of the day EVERYONE, even CBJ, knew that this team had gone through tough years. Just like the players that were ahead of them did. Sorry, but by the time the Vandy game came along with 2 weeks to prepare and with home field advantage what Hood said can't be on Dooley. This coaching staff shouldn't get a pass as its on them especially since they got over that hump with the win of USCjr. Imo '12 had bigger strides towards giving the team some hope of winning. People didn't see it like I did because of Gruden. I personally believe the Gruden fiasco cost us 1-2 games without a doubt. Also, combined that with Brays attitude, and him being in so much control of a games outcome.

So with all that said many of yall like to put little jabs in at Dooley by just saying that issues that CBJ is facing is due to the last 3 yrs instead of being honest and just saying that he is facing obstacles that stem from yrs and yrs of issues at UT. Yall just keep jabbing Dooley every time u can as if there r enough hrs in a day for him to kiss the ring of every HS coach that "swears" he has the next SEC star, and is trying to get his foot in the door while dooley is building the new facilities, dealing with the NCAA, dealing with the firing of the AD that hired him and then the new AD, trying to find new staff members, trying to purge the team of bad players etc etc. Now I will tell u this right now, cause I know all yall want to change my mind on Dooley...and I'm not saying the guy didn't have his issues...but find me proof that the guy didn't put in hrs trying to figure things out both known and unexpected land mines then we can discuss it. Otherwise you're not going to get me to change my tune to much.
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[Brave Volunteer]

To those who don't think talent was an issue last year, let me make it really simple for you...

2013

TENNESSEE

VS

OREGON