How can the talent debate even exist?
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Vol8188
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butchna
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Aesius
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Orangeslice13
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UTRavens
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Calling it "reality" does not make it reality. They lost some very good players from the 2010 and 2011 that were never adequately replaced (notice how I'm talking about 2012, not just Butch Jones' team, since you're so insistent that I have an agenda).
You mention "less depth and development"...well gee, where do you think that depth and development goes once the upperclassmen in front of them graduate? They go to the starting lineup, which - no surprise - has regressed quite a bit in recent years due to such abjectly horrible screw-ups in defensive recruiting over the last five years. Those consequences have been felt much more severely since 2012 than they were in 2010 and 2011.
Oskie Volum
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Hey uuuu guyyyssss!!! WOW...just finished getting through this thread (yes I read the whole thing before I comment and can take me a few days). Didn't expect it to go the way it did. It sure has been a nail bitter.
I wasn't even going to mention anything Dooley until I got to yesterday where the same people that would harp on his KY loss for yrs are now trying to sweep CBJs loss to Vandy under the "Awww it was last year and let's look towards the future" rug. Smfh.
Can't stand this speed/talent argument being stronger than the the lack of in-game and prep coaching. We had TWO WEEKS to prep for a team that at most (being generous) was equally talented. And at Neyland.
Speed doesn't do anything if the player doesn't know where he is going. If a buddy and I r going to a party in separate cars. I have a 6-figure sports car and he has a mid 90s Honda Accord LX (i'll give him some leather seats to make him cooler), but he knows exactly where the party is. Who's rolling up first??
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I wasn't even going to mention anything Dooley until I got to yesterday where the same people that would harp on his KY loss for yrs are now trying to sweep CBJs loss to Vandy under the "Awww it was last year and let's look towards the future" rug. Smfh.
Can't stand this speed/talent argument being stronger than the the lack of in-game and prep coaching. We had TWO WEEKS to prep for a team that at most (being generous) was equally talented. And at Neyland.
Speed doesn't do anything if the player doesn't know where he is going. If a buddy and I r going to a party in separate cars. I have a 6-figure sports car and he has a mid 90s Honda Accord LX (i'll give him some leather seats to make him cooler), but he knows exactly where the party is. Who's rolling up first??
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Spartacavolus
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A few on here have argued that Team 117 had more talent that the vast majority of SEC teams, including one specific poster who insists that UT had much better talent than Missouri. Yet I noticed that Missouri had seven players invited to the NFL combine, 2 more than Tennessee. Add that to the eye test of what we saw on the field and the fact that Missouri played for the SEC title. Poor argument.
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butchna
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Dr Dread
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Nobody is saying that UT had a better team than Missouri. The question here is why.
If a UT coach had signed any of Missouri's last 5 classes, he would've been run off before spring practice started. The big difference here is player development. While they were turning 2*s into All-SEC players, we were turning 4*s into busts.
The biggest difference between the two programs is the continuity of the coaching staffs. Missouri has only one coach that has been on the staff for less than 5 yrs.
Though I wasn't overly impressed with the on-field coaching last yr, I an very interested in how returning the entire coaching staff for the first time since the Fulmer yrs will affect team development.
TNnative
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If a team wants to be competitive in the SEC, you cannot be average recruiters. You have to excel in three areas: evaluation, recruiting, and development. In evaluation, the past staffs did not dig deep enough. In recruiting, they may have landed some good players in certain areas, but not all. And development? I attribute that mainly to a lack on continuity. When our outgoing seniors who were here four and five years have three or four different position coaches, it's a recipe for disaster. So everyone who calls for a coach to be fired every time they feel an ounce of disappointment might consider they need to stfu.
I didn't say anything about the team other than you could see that Missouri was significantly more talented than UT last year. They were quicker,faster, stronger....that was evident. I also believe they were better coached and they certainly were a more confident team.
My only point was that at the end of the day, the NFL invited 7 Missouri players to the combine vs 5 players from UT, which I believe partially disproves the idea that UT had more talent than Missouri last year. Those Dooley recruiting classes and the Kiffin class were fool's gold. A lot of those guys were no longer on the team and some of the others were "highly rated" like Jacques Smith simply weren't very talented/physically gifted players. Throw in the handful of walkons that got significant playing time and you get a team that was, IMO, a team in the bottom half-bottom third in the SEC talent-wise.
Just to keep the debate alive, thought a couple of nuggets from the NFL Combine were interesting.
Jordan Matthews from Vandy, 6'3 215, ran an unofficial 4.40 40, 4.46 officially timed 40. Who in UTs secondary could sniff that time? Randolph? McNeil? Moore? Coleman? Swaufford? Maybe Cam Sutton, a true freshman?
Andre Hal, Vandy CB, ran a 4.40 40 time this morning. Which UT WR last year could run a legit 4.4 flat 40? Croom? J Smith? Howard? Maybe North, a true freshman.
Talent between UT was a lot closer/even than a lot of guys on here want to believe.
How many DBs and WRs are gonna get drafted from UT this year? Answer is zero. How many DBs and WRs are gonna get drafted from Candy this year? Looks like 3-4.
Jordan Matthews from Vandy, 6'3 215, ran an unofficial 4.40 40, 4.46 officially timed 40. Who in UTs secondary could sniff that time? Randolph? McNeil? Moore? Coleman? Swaufford? Maybe Cam Sutton, a true freshman?
Andre Hal, Vandy CB, ran a 4.40 40 time this morning. Which UT WR last year could run a legit 4.4 flat 40? Croom? J Smith? Howard? Maybe North, a true freshman.
Talent between UT was a lot closer/even than a lot of guys on here want to believe.
How many DBs and WRs are gonna get drafted from UT this year? Answer is zero. How many DBs and WRs are gonna get drafted from Candy this year? Looks like 3-4.
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KBVol & Spartacavolus' whole act here is to continually insinuate that Vanderbilt had more talent than TN and therefore that loss was understandable, excusable, or whatever...as long as it is not at all the fault of our coaches, who must always remain blameless.
You want to use a few 40 times now as your "proof"? Okay chief. I guess we'll ignore that UT had more players in that game who were invited to the combine (because line of scrimmage players don't matter anyway in college football, right? And that Vanderbilt game was clearly more of a track meet). We'll ignore that we started 15 4*star players in that game (I haven't looked up how many Vanderbilt started, but I doubt it's more than 2, if that many). We'll ignore that we were favored by the experts to win it.
Nope, none of that matters. Vanderbilt has a couple of fast guys. The coaches get a pass again.
(It's a good thing we didn't meet up with Rice. They had a DB run a 4.34. Clearly, they should have blown us out.)
You want to use a few 40 times now as your "proof"? Okay chief. I guess we'll ignore that UT had more players in that game who were invited to the combine (because line of scrimmage players don't matter anyway in college football, right? And that Vanderbilt game was clearly more of a track meet). We'll ignore that we started 15 4*star players in that game (I haven't looked up how many Vanderbilt started, but I doubt it's more than 2, if that many). We'll ignore that we were favored by the experts to win it.
Nope, none of that matters. Vanderbilt has a couple of fast guys. The coaches get a pass again.
(It's a good thing we didn't meet up with Rice. They had a DB run a 4.34. Clearly, they should have blown us out.)
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Spartacavolus
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I posted a dozen times that we should've beaten Vandy and it was a bad loss, so gtfo with your tired act.
The fact is you and others insinuate that UT was more talented and deeper and it's a misinformed stance. The games won, bowl games, and nfl interest in their speed positions instead of ours proves the point. Go figure you can't understand it.
The fact is you and others insinuate that UT was more talented and deeper and it's a misinformed stance. The games won, bowl games, and nfl interest in their speed positions instead of ours proves the point. Go figure you can't understand it.
Spartacavolus
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Relax Oregon. I know you're obsessed with the Vandy loss and all .... I was one of the first to criticize the coaching, particularly at the WR position after that game. Hell, I was so pissed off and negative and critical of the coaches, particularly of Azzani and the pathetic WR performance, that another poster actually lumped me and you in together, criticized us simultaneously as some type of "brothers in arms". You remember that don't you, sure you do.
But I can recognize that the talent levels between Vandy and UT were pretty damn close last year. There was a time when there was such a disparity in the talent levels between the 2 programs that it didn't matter what UT's coaches did, how they performed ... UT was still gonna dominate Vandy. Those days, at this point, are gone.
We will have no skill position players drafted this year, they'll have 3-4. The only position representative of UTs team last year (other than McCullers, lol) in the draft are the 4 OLs and each of their "draft stocks" have reportedly dropped a lot, including Tiny's, with their poor combine performances. I was pointing out the exact opposite with Vandy's 2 players Matthews and Hal, who have each performed very well at Combine.
Whether we want to admit it or not, which many do not, the 2013 UT and Vandy rosters were very close in talent. The difference in the game last year was that Vandy knew they would find a way to win and UTs players knew they would find a way to lose..... both were right.
Edit: oh yeah, throw in Kenny Ladler as another Vandy player who tested very well at the combine. Finished as the best safety in the bench press, vertical and broad jumps. Which UT DB would've/could've tested this well? Yeah, that's what I thought.
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I'm sure for every single instance you've posted that the Vanderbilt loss was a bad loss, I could link to twice as many instances where you tried to argue or suggest that they had a talent advantage. So which is it?
I've stayed clear and consistent: Tennessee had more talent than Vanderbilt, as they always do. It was a bad loss. We were out coached. There are no excuses for it.
You on the other hand, seem utterly confused. You say it is a bad loss (and you say you've said this dozens of times before, though I am unable to recall an instance), but then you say that those of us who believe that UT was more talented are misinformed. So, you believe UT didn't have the talent to beat Vanderbilt? That must be your stance, since you state that those of us who believe otherwise are misinformed, right? But yet, then you say that we should have beaten them and that it was a bad loss? Why would you say that we should have beaten a team that was more talented? Why would you consider it a bad loss, if you believe that they had the talent advantage? You stance makes no sense.
Everytime I come on here, you or Spartacavolus or one of your ilk are talking up Vanderbilt's talent level. I'm sure you have more posts about Vanderbilt than I do. Who is "obsessed"?
Link me to all of those posts you made criticizing our coaches for that loss. I remember no more than one. For every "criticism" you've ever made, I can show you numerous posts you've made suggesting our coaches were simply out-talented by those mighty Vanderbilt forces. It seems there is nothing you won't say to prop up rival programs or denigrate our players as long as it gives your beloved coaches an extra excuse or removes some more responsibility from them.
I guess 3 players having good workouts cancels out everything else. If only we could have had those 3 guys instead of our 15 4 star starters or our homefield advantage or our senior laden O-line and D-line or our 5 combine invited big men or our training facilities or our highly paid trainers and staff, poor Butch might have had a chance.
Can't decide if you're willfully ignorant, delusional or just a liar. Coin flip IMO. Although the part about being able to find posts authored by me saying Vandy has more talent than UT is an f-ing lie.... I have never, EVER, posted that, I don't believe that and the only way you're ever gonna produce a post that says that from me is if you alter it/edit it/FYP it.....which for the record, I wouldn't put past you. That's a bald faced lie, pure and simple.
Additionally, if you somehow went back to the night of the Vandy game you would find multiple, as in more than a dozen posts of me absolutely ripping the coaching staff, in particular Azzani for not having a single creaking WR capable of getting open on any route, at any time, which led to the loss. So you've lied about that too.
What I have said is that the talent gap, which once was cavernous is no longer. It has closed considerably to the point that it's relatively close as Tennessee became a slow, relatively unathletic team by SEC standards compared to Vandy which has significantly improved their overall talent during the same time period. Hell, it was you who constantly harped on Butch for signing a worse class than Vandy last year after being on the job all of 8 weeks. So by your own *****ing and moaning, there's one class of Vandy players that was better than UTs. Are you really gonna argue that UTs was much better the year before. Hell, the players I talked about showing out in the combine were recruited by Bobby Johnson iirc. And their performances at the combine had nothing to do with scheme or game plans, but had everything to do with their ATHLETIC ABILITIES.
So I've posted in this thread about 2 matters... 1. Missouri had more players invited to the combine, fact and 2. Vandy's players have performed very well at the combine which has reflected well on their football talent, vs UTs players who have performed very poorly at the combine, have seen their draft prospects plummet, which has reflected poorly on their football talents. Again, this is reported fact. Neither of these posts were remotely aimed at you yet here you come, as you normally do, like a bat out of hell with snarky-ass comments in hand to show how stupid a conflicting opinion to yours is.
Poor wittle Oregon got his feeweengs hurt because somebody, anybody, poked holes, even a little bit, in his blind, rage fueled theory that UTs roster was bounding with talent but those idiot Big East-bred, SEC wannabe coaches can't coach for shiite, leaving the Vol football program mired in failure and doomed for all time.
Go ahead, regale us with more of your BS. We all know it's coming.
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