How can the talent debate even exist?

#76
#76
Seems pretty simple to me:

Players come in with either 1) potential or 2) play-now talent. Then their character, work ethic and the quality of the coaching they are given all come together to develop them for the NFL.

We've had recruiting classes the last few pre-Butch years that were 1) less than acceptable in overall potential, 2) didn't have enough play-now talent, and 3) had an unusually high amount of character and work ethic flaws. Then once they got here they were not properly supervised and coached up. To quote a former coach, the last six years pre-Butch - across 3 different coaches - were a "perfect storm" of failure by both players and coaches.

So yes, we had a player talent shortage. We also had a coaching talent shortage, a player effort shortage, a coaching effort shortage, a player character shortage and a coaching character shortage.

Enter Butch Jones: Shortage Assassin
 
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#77
#77
I guess I understand the Vandy talk, but they aren't winning the East any time soon, and they don't have to play Alabama every year. They also don't schedule the likes of Oklahoma and Oregon for OOC games.

Alabama has 10 players invited to the combine, 6 of them on Defense

Florida 10 players, 5 Defense

UGA 11 players, 9 Defense

USCe 7 players, 3 Defense
 
#78
#78
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#80
#80
tm3 said:
True. But, so have other schools. In fact some analysts say that the attrition is widespread enough that it can be discounted as far as comparison.
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I highly doubt that. I'd bet that from the 2010-12 classes, other SEC schools didn't even lose half as many 4-star recruits by 2013 as Tennessee did.
 
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#82
#82
VolFan31 said:
It was not the worst scoring D in the last 50 years it wasn't even the worst scoring D in the last 2 years. We were almost 7 points better this year then we were last year.
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You are correct. I meant to say 2nd worst (as I have numerous times here so I did in fact know that) but thanks for the correction.

Almost 7 pts better was still historically bad. Maybe 29 ppg makes you feel better following the performance of a known incompetent at 35.6 ppg... it doesn't me. My "standard" for comparison would be Wilcox the year before at 22.6 ppg with basically the same or worse personnel or else Monte in 09 with no depth and a depleted LB corps at 22.2 ppg.

"Championship" level D's allow in the low teens usually.

These same players were playing out of position long before Butch Jones got there.
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How does that help your excuse? Does them being coached poorly before somehow justify the failure of Jancek to do better?

Even with this problem the D was almost 7 points better then last year despite the offense not being able to move the ball leaving the D on the field a lot. Hopefully with some consistency within the coaching staff they will straighten it out this year, but seeing that a lot of these players have had a hard time getting into position no matter who the coach is it might be an issue with the players.
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That WAS true to an extent but not entirely. Many of the same players with less experience and development while playing for Wilcox in '11 performed much better.

The scheming and playcalling on defense is hard for me to judge with players constantly getting beat or out of position I don't know if there were any plays that could be called that would have been effective.
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I could buy that too if less talented and slower teams had not done a better job against several of UT's opponents.
 
#84
#84
Talent was an issue... talent was an issue... talent was an issue.... into infinity and beyond. I still haven't seen anyone dispute that so PLEASE stop trying to resurrect that strawman.

BUT talent was not the ONLY issue. The DC's performance was subpar.
 
#86
#86
I think one huge point in the is debate is not just if there is 'talent' on the team ...but where the talent is lacking . Lack of talent in different areas affects a team in different ways .
1) we did not have an established QB. None of the 3 guys seemed developed enough for the job at this point in their careers. How often do teams win anything with bad or inconsistent QBs?
2 ) no real receiving corps. North showed plenty of potential , the rest consisted of walk-ons , guys that were running backs the season before. No established TE ...CBJs O is TE dependent
3 ) Defensive front depth was lacking . Asking down line men to play 70 plus snaps a game is a ridiculous thing to ask ...yet we had to do it . Our D , because of this , had 1-2 quarters of meaningful football . Then it was downhill from there . It is hard to even judge the secondary when they were routinly in coverage for 4-5 seconds
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There were other problems ...but the above combo of issues spells disaster . It will take more than 3 to 5 players to fix this. With this class we look alot closer to doing that than we have in the past few years.
 
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#87
#87
Vol8188 said:
We've had a ton of 4 stars transfer over that time frame also. The 2012 class being the worst, losin Bourque at RB, Phillips at DT, Bonner a CB, Watson at RB, Gray at CB, Meredith at TE.

If you don't count the 3 jucos, we signed 19 in that class. We've already lost 6 of them. That's nearly a third of the class, and all were players we were countin on at positions of need.
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Someone posted that UT had more attrition of 4 and 5 star recruits than any program in the SEC. No idea if that's true or not but I think we've lost our fair share of highly rated players over the past few years. Also we found out we had a laxass S&C program over the Dooley era from J James.

Excuses are excuses but to ignore all the things that have happen to lead us to this point is ignorant. The program wasn't destroyed in a year and it will not be rebuilt in a year either. Have a little patience.

And to the question did Vandy have more talent than UT this year. I would say they definitely had more SEC ready talent with years in their offensive and defensive system and time in S&C. This was the best Vandy will ever be and the worst UT will be in our lifetimes and they only barely squeaked out a victory.
 
#88
#88
Vandy had greater talent in the following places:

Qb, RB, wr, TE, DL, LB, and Db.
 
#89
#89
Player development. Need to recruit solid character and potential, then develop. Many 2-3 stars do pan out and many 4-5 stars wash out. I have always wondered if Tn has a player development program (not just strength/conditioning/skills, but character and relationships)
 
#92
#92
UTRavens said:
No freakin' way.
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Sorry. But your opinion is detached from reality. Wilcox's last D was many of the same guys... but less depth and development. I know you are determined to excuse these coaches from all responsibility... but denying reality is plain ridiculous.
 
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#93
#93
FEARinSEC said:
Some people's obsession with Vandy is getting just plain weird.
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Well, I guess my obsession stems from the game with them being the difference between a positive step in the right direction and it being what it was, a failure.
Before you tear into me for calling last season a failure, I will remind you all that Butch said himself that a bowl game was the goal of last year's team. The goal was not met. That, my Orange clad brethren, is failure.
 
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#94
#94
Damn Doyle. Srsly man. The game was almost 4 months ago and in a different year. It's gone. Almost everybody knows we should've won the game.

I have no idea why it must be brought up every day. Makes zero sense to me. I bet you have brought it up a couple hundred times. Love ya man, but gotta let it go. Nothing you can do about it and *****ing about it everyday serves no purpose, imo.
 
#95
#95
Spartacavolus said:
Damn Doyle. Srsly man. The game was almost 4 months ago and in a different year. It's gone. Almost everybody knows we should've won the game.

I have no idea why it must be brought up every day. Makes zero sense to me. I bet you have brought it up a couple hundred times. Love ya man, but gotta let it go. Nothing you can do about it and *****ing about it everyday serves no purpose, imo.
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Sparty, you are the voice of reason. I know I harp on it way too much. It just sickens me to think about what could have been, I guess. I really like Butch and I bought in especially after the SC win. I made the mistake of taking for granted that Vandy was a win and we were going bowling. Sorry for regurgitating the same old same old. You're right, I need to let it go.
 
#96
#96
Doyle Hargraves said:
Sparty, you are the voice of reason. I know I harp on it way too much. It just sickens me to think about what could have been, I guess. I really like Butch and I bought in especially after the SC win. I made the mistake of taking for granted that Vandy was a win and we were going bowling. Sorry for regurgitating the same old same old. You're right, I need to let it go.
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We have a new team and there will be more to complain about. Was a tough loss. No doubt. Block in the back that took away a walk in td hurt badly. Unfortunately, it happens.
 
#98
#98
Vol8188 said:
I guess no one wants to debate this? I'm glad everyone agrees with me that Vandy was more talented.
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The fact that it is even debatable shows how sad this team's talent level is currently. I know some will point to the class rankings in recruiting but as far as experience in SEC play, time in S&C, and on field talent Vandy was better than UT.

Arguing about the past will not solve anything. The fact is UT is as bad as far as depth, and talent as it will ever be under CBJ. We should only improve from this point forward.
 
#99
#99
DaddyChad said:
The fact that it is even debatable shows how sad this team's talent level is currently. I know some will point to the class rankings in recruiting but as far as experience in SEC play, time in S&C, and on field talent Vandy was better than UT.

Arguing about the past will not solve anything. The fact is UT is as bad as far as depth, and talent as it will ever be under CBJ. We should only improve from this point forward.
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Agreed. The 15 class is shaping up to be just as good as this one.
 
#100
#100
Vol8188 said:
I guess no one wants to debate this? I'm glad everyone agrees with me that Vandy was more talented.
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Why bother debating something that is so obviously wrong with someone who refuses to see reason and will just categorically reject objective data like recruiting services and star rankings in favor of the "well they played better so they must have more talent (can't be the coaching, can't ever be the coaching, the coaches are our lords and saviors)" mentality?
 
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