How do we win in Afghanistan?

#251
#251
lawgator1 said:
And Trump said a half dozen times we should get out immediately.

He changed his mind when he learned the consequences. Now, you can decide whether the consequences he wanted to avoid were 1) don't leave because then the Taliban takes over, or 2) don't leave because then politically you are the president who is viewed as having surrendered and given up.

My money is 25 percent the former, 75 percent the latter.
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And Nixon was seen as surrendering in Vietnam? Did Obama or Bush get (fairly) blamed for losing Iraq?

Of course, the media these days would crucify Trump as "surrendering" and you would be all over that like white on rice. So, I see your point.
 
#252
#252
Trump's instincts are almost always to do the wrong thing--and he seems to quietly delight in undoing things that Obama did (I think partly because Trump is most definitely a racist--fact)--but he now seems to be listening to the generals, who are the only halfway sensible people in his administration, and so we are staying in Afghanistan, as we should. Everything else Trump said is just the usual bull$hit. It has been suggested on numerous occasions, over many years, that the Taliban were ready to negotiate, or might be close to ready--and nothing tangible ever happens. You can't militarily defeat militants--that is a social and educational and economic issue that will take generations. There are genuine radicals, to be sure, and lots of them--and also vast numbers of unemployed, uneducated young men, and for them harassing the invaders is just something to do. There are elements in Pakistan (in the military, in radical groups), and in the region, that support the Taliban.

It is, in the end, about nation-building in the sense of continuing to help strengthen and professionalize the Afghan armed forces and the government. The best way to fight the radicals is the way the Obama administration did it--with intelligence and then drone attacks. At some point the young men will get the message that it might be wiser to get a real job than try to fight the Americans and other Western nations (and remember we are part of a 39-nation coalition in Afghanistan)--but in a region with so many problems that realization is still probably a long way off.
 
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#253
#253
Grand Vol said:
And Nixon was seen as surrendering in Vietnam? Did Obama or Bush get (fairly) blamed for losing Iraq?

Of course, the media these days would crucify Trump as "surrendering" and you would be all over that like white on rice. So, I see your point.
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Well, actually, you make a couple of good points. I tend to think you are right that if this does not result in a measurable benefit within a year, then Trump is likely to go back to a more hard core withdrawal and isolationist position.

Bannon for sure is going to be all over this, and if we lose 100 more soldiers and we're back to mulling over the mercenary option, Bannon is going to needle Trump so much he can't stand it. Probably rightly so, too.

As to the stigma of losing, you are also making a valid point. But it may be more subtle than either of us is ascribing to it. It might not be pulling out and "losing" as much as it is fear of pulling out and repeating Iraq.

He doesn't want the ISIS redux label put on him. Can't blame him. But just no good solution.
 
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#255
#255
lawgator1 said:
Well, actually, you make a couple of good points. I tend to think you are right that if this does not result in a measurable benefit within a year, then Trump is likely to go back to a more hard core withdrawal and isolationist position.

Bannon for sure is going to be all over this, and if we lose 100 more soldiers and we're back to mulling over the mercenary option, Bannon is going to needle Trump so much he can't stand it. Probably rightly so, too.

As to the stigma of losing, you are also making a valid point. But it may be more subtle than either of us is ascribing to it. It might not be pulling out and "losing" as much as it is fear of pulling out and repeating Iraq.

He doesn't want the ISIS redux label put on him. Can't blame him. But just no good solution.
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See what happens when you're reasonable and put things into context and partisanship to the side?

My, how charming you can be...
 
#256
#256
Trump is a master at manipulating GOP voters. I can't believe people are happy/hopeful with this decision.

We literally learn nothing from history because if you just put a minor twist on a bad idea, people will be willing to try it.
 
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#261
#261
Trump should maintain the status quo in Afghanistan---limited/smallish number of troops and advisors; use drones to attack radicals and their hideouts. Sending in more troops will accomplish nothing and just waste more money.

This is a good analysis of the situation. It notes that Obama tripled our troop level there during his first term, thinking he could achieve a breakthrough. Nope. It also notes that more than 1,000 Afghan police officers were killed in just a three-month period this year--between March and May. Wow--and that doesn't include Afghan army troops, an even higher number. The country is a tough nut and is always going to be a tough nut. We need to be there, but only at a troop and spending level sufficient to support the government and keep the place halfway stable, without spending hugely. It's a LONG-term game.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...fghan-strategy-risks-the-worst-of-both-worlds
 
#262
#262
Dumbass.

Obama announced a surge, accompanied by a withdrawal date. A politically driven, half-hearted measure by someone who does not understand how to conduct a winning strategy but is more interested in political appearances.

And that legacy in Afghanistan, like President Obama’s foreign policy record as a whole, is troubled at best. At points he had the elements of the right approach—more troops, more reconstruction assistance, and a counterinsurgency strategy—but he never gave them the time and resources to succeed. Obama came into office rightly arguing that the war was important but had been sidelined, and promised to set it aright. Yet Obama’s choices since 2009 reflect a more conflicted stance, and it is not clear he ever settled on a coherent strategy. He deployed more troops than needed for a narrow counterterrorism operation, but not enough for a broader counterinsurgency campaign. He initially increased reconstruction funding because he believed, rightly, that effective Afghan governance was an essential condition for victory, but quickly second-guessed himself and subsequently reduced civilian aid every year thereafter.

Most damagingly, Obama insisted on the public issuance of a withdrawal deadline for U.S. troops, undermining his own surge—which eventually became so obvious that he finally reversed himself. Obama’s belated decision to sustain a small force of some 5,500 troops in Afghanistan beyond his term in office is likely to keep the Afghan army in the field and the Taliban from outright victory—but this is a low bar compared to what Obama once hoped to achieve there.

https://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/02/15/obamas-failed-legacy-in-afghanistan/
 
#263
#263
So Trump wants to fight a limited ground war(?) on Asian soil where you kill one soldier there's another waiting to replace him. Extremely rough fighting terrain. Nearly impossible to get reliable intelligence from the populace. A national border to slip across to receive cover, medical treatment and supplies. We run operations on the ground during daylight and return to base a night. Booby traps and IEDs lay in wait to take life and limb without an enemy in sight. Does that sound a little familiar?

Trump says we can win. No, we can't win that type of war in Asia. We have tried and failed before. About all we can hope do is maintain he status quo at a tremendous cost. Pakistan won't aid us. Mainly because Pakistan. doesn't control the region. The ISI (Pakistan Intelligence) are not our friend. The people on the border are themselves Muslims and friendly to the Taliban.

IMO Trump has stepped on his own ***k again and this won't end well.





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#265
#265
This meme both made me laugh and struck a nerve. It's damn ridiculous that we are still there and ramping things up. I always mock people for not seeing history repeat itself, but when Obama was elected I thought that he might actually end Afghanistan. I did the same **** with Trump. I guess I'll never learn. #dts #maga

20953065_767452213434213_8042261911785783892_n.jpg
 
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#266
#266
n_huffhines said:
This meme both made me laugh and struck a nerve. It's damn ridiculous that we are still there and ramping things up. I always mock people for not seeing history repeat itself, but when Obama was elected I thought that he might actually end Afghanistan. I did the same **** with Trump. I guess I'll never learn. #dts #maga

20953065_767452213434213_8042261911785783892_n.jpg
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It's absolutely ridiculous.

Can anybody say with an certainty what we're fighting for in Afghanistan?
 
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#270
#270
n_huffhines said:
This meme both made me laugh and struck a nerve. It's damn ridiculous that we are still there and ramping things up. I always mock people for not seeing history repeat itself, but when Obama was elected I thought that he might actually end Afghanistan. I did the same **** with Trump. I guess I'll never learn. #dts #maga

20953065_767452213434213_8042261911785783892_n.jpg
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I was 9 years old when 9/11 and about a quarter of the guys in my Company were born in 1997
 
#271
#271
Mattis target of failed Kabul airport rocket attack, Taliban says

Hours after Mattis landed, the rockets were fired at Kabul's Hamid Karzai International Airport from an unknown location and landed in an open area, according to Najib Danish, spokesman for the Afghan Interior Ministry. He did not reveal how many rockets were fired.
Mattis and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg had already left the airport at the time of the incident, Danish said. No one was injured.


http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/politics/mattis-afghanistan/index.html
 
#272
#272
Pepe_Silvia said:
It's absolutely ridiculous.

Can anybody say with an certainty what we're fighting for in Afghanistan?
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The sad thing is, the same people that say the football players can't even think of a reason for why they are taking a knee on Sundays are the same ones that can't come up with a reason why we are losing lives and treasure over in Afghanistan.

So which is worse, a group of people that are kneeling but can't explain why they are doing it, or a group of people that support sending teenagers halfway around the world to die for a reason they can't explain?
 
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#275
#275
Afghanistan is not winnable. Watch Restrepo or anything on NatGeo, it's a completely different world. That part of the world is not manageable.
 
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