I have a question for some of the Political forum regulars....

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#478
How do people become soo convinced they are right on these issues? Is is a warm fuzzy feeling? Ego? Indoctrination?
 
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#479
And therein lies the problem....people are judging Christianity by a few of the followers.

"Sorry God. I'm not following you or believing in you because a few of the people claiming to do so are nuts. Forget that my relationship and faith is with YOU. I'd rather judge you by some misguided group who claims to follow you."
 
#482
#482
golfballs03 said:
playing devil's advocate here.... couldn't the same thing be said for Islam?
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Yes it could. But as I've said repeatedly, look at the sources and compare regarding the two. I know well enough there are misguided followers of EVERY belief - political, economic, social, religious, etc. But when I go to the belief itself, that is what I base my view on. I can go to the source and see violence preached along with killing and conquering. With the other I can go to the source and see tables flipped for the same thing that Osteen and others are doing. I see the exact opposite things here.
 
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#483
T-TownVol said:
Dinka,
You have just proven that you do not know what the Bible actually says.
I hope you get back in a church that will help you, God Bless.
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It's completely disingenuous for you to insult someone's intelligence (solely because they don't agree with your particular beliefs) and then try to play the "I hope you turn it around" card.
 
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IPorange said:
It's completely disingenuous for you to insult someone's intelligence (solely because they don't agree with your particular beliefs) and then try to play the "I hope you turn it around" card.
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Did you read the entire thread? I never asked him about his beliefs. The topic, between he and I, is direct Bible wording.
He claims to be well versed in the Bible because he has attended "several" churches.
My simple question was about the Bible and what Jesus said about "the Church" and corporate worship. He continued to dance around and offer opinion for answers.
My comment on his intellegence is on his Bible knowledge because he has proven, with his posts, that he does not know what the Bible says about the topic. Yet he proclaims that he does.
I stand behind my assertion.
 
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#486
T-TownVol said:
Did you read the entire thread?
He claims to be well versed in the Bible because he has attended "several" churches.
My simple question was about the Bible and what Jesus said about "the Church" and corporate worship. He continued to dance around and offer opinion for answers.
My comment on his intellegence is on his Bible knowledge because he has proven, with his posts, that he does not know what the Bible says about the topic. Yet he proclaims that he does.
I stand behind my assertion.
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Even if you are correct, don't you think you are substituting "intelligence" for "ignorance?"
 
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#487
IPorange said:
Even if you are correct, don't you think you are substituting "intelligence" for "ignorance?"
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not according to him....but, yes....ignorance is more correct in this case...now I see where you were going with this....thanks
 
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DinkinFlicka said:
And finally, to answer your question: I'm going to take a safe guess and say that Jesus defined HIS church as the kingdom of heaven, yeah? So, after seeing all his conflict with the religious bureaucracy throughout the NT... I think his opinion of institutionalized religion is so painfully obvious.
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That is why I belong to an Independent Baptist church with the emphasis on "independent". The Baptist label has been corrupted almost as much as "Christian".
"Think for yourself. Question authority."
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A much better way of saying that is "Know why you believe what you believe."

The problem I have with most liberals isn't that they differ with my opinion but that there are so many unanswered and fatal objections to what they promote. They routinely refuse to deal with them. Their "proof" is to deny the existence of the objection rather than answering it in a way consistent with the rest of their worldview. Often times, the worldview expressed by liberals is a bunch of contradictory notions cobbled together out of convenience.

So since I said something similar to what you said, I'm arguing nonsense. See what I'm saying? ;)
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I'm satisfied with the apology but yeah... it really is. You put words in my mouth that completely changed the meaning of what I said so you could mount an argument against it.

I see what you're saying, but why? The Bible can be so open to individual interpretation so often, which could make one feel as though it never contradicts itself... but it's proven that it's chock full of 'em.
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Unless you have found something new, there are no unresolved contradictions in the Bible. Will everyone accept the answers given? Of course not but the way you present this suggests that there are glaring contradictions that have no reasonable answers. That is not true.

There are matters of interpretation but the fundamental doctrines and living principles are really quite clear. Even those have been perverted by various "churches" but again you cannot say they do not exist simply because someone has corrupted them.
Does one simply overlook them, accept them as mistakes made in ancient literature, or digest them as one of those "open to interpretation" scenarios?
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No. You treat them with the same standard of proof and criticism that you would apply to any other systematic truth claim. Most people who refuse to accept that there are reasonable explanations for the supposed "chock full of 'em" contradictions have a pre-determined and usually rigid bias against the Bible.


I agree with everything in that first paragraph and, as I stated earlier, I don't fault what Jesus taught (despite my lack of belief in it) and I certainly don't fault the folks who earnestly believe in those teachings and try to live their lives by what he said.
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What specifically did Jesus or even the NT teach that you object to and have disproven to your satisfaction. I would hope that whether you accept or reject the NT gospel... you would acknowledge that the stakes are very, very high for you personally.

The sad fact is, though, is that those perversions are more prevalent than ever. Sure, we're not having the Crusades or the inquisition.
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Not a new phenomenon. Jesus warned that false teachers would come in His name... and several epistles indicate they already had even before the destruction of Jerusalem around 70 AD.
But, if you ask me, I gathered from reading the Bible that God views no sin in darker light than any other.
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If so, and with no intent for being offensive, you didn't read it very well. Jesus called one sin unforgiveable. The OT (moral principles were not overturned by Christ) declares "7 things that God hates" and classifies some sins as abominations worthy of death.
It seemed that he was willing to forgive every single sin, and that made taking a life no worse than stealing in his eyes.
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Any and all sin separates one from the fellowship with God he was designed for. Without atonement, even a single sin will result in ultimate condemnation according to the NT.... but no one really has to worry about coming that close and missing, do they?

Jesus witnessed murder and death, and if I recall, he was only truly angered by the bartering going on in "His father's house." That is EXACTLY what is going on today... you have these gentlemen on infomercials selling unfiltered, bottled water as atonement for their sins. You have people like Joel Osteen pitching his newest book to the 50,000+ people in his audience with millions more watching him on TV. I'm not religious, and it really disgusts me. Plus, he looks like the love child of Martin Short and Tim Allen. That's just gross.
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I could not possibly agree more. They are making a mockery of the name of Christ and conning people out of millions. If you want to see the face and character of Christianity, I'd suggest John MacArthur and folks like that.

Sounds like we're really going to agree to disagree here. You're defining Christian whereas I'm defining the church.
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But you said "Christian", right?
I much prefer face to face discussions... I conduct myself with more reasoning and restraint, and I listen much better.
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But is that really healthy? When writing you can lay it all out but also measure what you say if you will. You lose the empathy and non-verbal communication but gain candor.

This was my longest forum post ever. I hope you take something from it, lol. Cheers.
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Always.
 
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#489
sjt18 said:
I could not possibly agree more. They are making a mockery of the name of Christ and conning people out of millions. If you want to see the face and character of Christianity, I'd suggest John MacArthur and folks like that.
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I'd just say look to Christ and not to man. We're born in sin and prone to it. We're 'human' and subject to stumbling. No one is perfect and even the 'best' stumble. I'm far from perfect or the best example but I strive to be as close to Christ as I can. Just look at Paul's writings and see they were trying to correct churches (groups of believers in particular cities) from straying off course all the time even then.

If Osteen's church and teachings bother you, don't go there. Don't sit there and fester on it and let it bother you. But at the same time, there is no perfect church. We're not perfect and we're not going to find the perfect church. All we can do is find a group of believers we feel we can grow together and serve Christ. We can be judgmental on saying no church works. Clearly with sin in our lives what if Christ had that same attitude and rejected us on that same standard?
 
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#494
TRUT is a treat....... I wonder how Ranger School went....... I guess and say really well since he hasn't been around for so long.
 
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#497
TRUT knows his stuff through and through, that is for sure. He got me to think about a lot of stuff I would have never thought of or considered.
 
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#498
CSpindizzy said:
If Osteen's church and teachings bother you, don't go there. Don't sit there and fester on it and let it bother you. But at the same time, there is no perfect church. We're not perfect and we're not going to find the perfect church. All we can do is find a group of believers we feel we can grow together and serve Christ. We can be judgmental on saying no church works. Clearly with sin in our lives what if Christ had that same attitude and rejected us on that same standard?
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I don't major on Osteen or really any of the other televangelist types. Generally speaking, I advise people to avoid them. OTOH, the NT clearly commands us to be critical and stedfast against false teaching. Almost all of the TV preachers have serious theological problems and teach error.

If you are going to view TV religious celebrities then the lifestyle of the leader should be evaluated carefully. Christ died owning only a coat. Paul lived an austere lifestyle. I don't think there's a single NT example of a church leader living above the congregation they served. When church leaders since have done so, they have almost invariably served mammon rather than God.
 
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