I know this might be unpopular…

[NighthawkVol]

Wow, I truly can’t believe this thread was created. CFA is elite. Period.

Chase Dollander, Chase Burns, and Drew Beam were an elite starting 3 in 2022. All were in their first season at UT. All three declined in performance after 2022. Burns then got better after transferring to Wake.

When an elite group of starting pitchers were better before they’d had at least a year of coaching from FA than they were after, that’s not an absurd topic to discuss. At all. Especially when one of them leaves and gets better. That’s not to say there couldn’t be extenuating circumstances that explain all of them. But let’s not act like it can’t be discussed.

Glad Beam seemed to bounce back yesterday. Hope it continues.

 

[cobbwebb0710]

You seem to be thinking I said he’s been bad with EVERY high velocity guy. I said “better” with low velocity guys. I also said maybe.

There are some examples I cited that are concerning. Citing others he’s done well with doesn’t make them go away. Again, he’s good. I’m questioning if he’s really great…because of the concerning examples I listed.

Expectations.
I don’t expect CFA, to turn every arm on the staff into a 1st round draft pick.
I think Chad Dallas May be his best accomplishment.
Taking nothing away from Cheese, that guy put in the work, but I think the combination of Chad’s work ethic and the work that CFA put into him, has him on the cusp of making a big league roster.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, pitching recruiting is a lot like offensive line recruiting, imo.
A 320 lb kid is going to stand out, blocking a 220 lb D-tackle.
Any of these guys are dominant when they are throwing 90 mph against goons like myself in high school or even in travel ball, against decent players who have the resources to play at that level.
When you get to the SEC, the majority of every bat you face has a shot at making the bigs and not every arm is going to translate to elite at this level, I don’t care who is coaching them up.

 

[cobbwebb0710]

Chase Dollander, Chase Burns, and Drew Beam were an elite starting 3 in 2022. All were in their first season at UT. All three declined in performance after 2022. Burns then got better after transferring to Wake.

When an elite group of starting pitchers were better before they’d had at least a year of coaching from FA than they were after, that’s not an absurd topic to discuss. At all. Especially when one of them leaves and gets better. That’s not to say there couldn’t be extenuating circumstances that explain all of them. But let’s not act like it can’t be discussed.

Glad Beam seemed to bounce back yesterday. Hope it continues.

1. Don’t put a lot of stock into recruiting rankings.
2. Scouting is on a different level and it’s hard to remain at an elite level, when you are facing SEC, elite level scouting, coaching, hitting and fielding.

 

[preacherman20]

so, who are the better pitching coaches than Frank? Names and colleges. So we can compare.

 

[NighthawkVol]

1. Don’t put a lot of stock into recruiting rankings.
2. Scouting is on a different level and it’s hard to remain at an elite level, when you are facing SEC, elite level scouting, coaching, hitting and fielding.

I wasn’t really talking about recruiting rankings, but yeah, #2 is a valid point. I also think the attempt to change CD’s arm angle last year hurt him.

But I still wonder about Burns. His trajectory can’t be explained by scouting. He got better at Wake and there is more film on him now than there was last year.

 

[taylorvol]

Chase Dollander, Chase Burns, and Drew Beam were an elite starting 3 in 2022. All were in their first season at UT. All three declined in performance after 2022. Burns then got better after transferring to Wake.

When an elite group of starting pitchers were better before they’d had at least a year of coaching from FA than they were after, that’s not an absurd topic to discuss. At all. Especially when one of them leaves and gets better. That’s not to say there couldn’t be extenuating circumstances that explain all of them. But let’s not act like it can’t be discussed.

Glad Beam seemed to bounce back yesterday. Hope it continues.

Technology has done more for hitting than for pitching. You just need some history and Track Man stats on a pitcher. Advanced Pitching simulators, virtual reality, and $15K pitching machines that simulate velocities, spin rates of every pitcher are changing the game and giving a HUGE advantage to the hitter.

 

[NighthawkVol]

so, who are the better pitching coaches than Frank? Names and colleges. So we can compare.

Why? What does that have to do with the topic? Those 3 pitchers I named all declined. One then got better after going to Wake. The ability to name other pitching coaches at other schools has zero to do with the topic. No one he suggesting that FA be replaced.

A lot of posters on this board are imputing intent that doesn’t exist. And because they don’t like the topic, it’s being avoided.

Frank has been very good for UT. I’ve said that multiple times. It’s not absurd to question the trends as it pertains to those 3.

 

[NighthawkVol]

Technology has done more for hitting than for pitching. You just need some history and Track Man stats on a pitcher. Advanced Pitching simulators, virtual reality, and $15K pitching machines that simulate velocities, spin rates of every pitcher are changing the game and giving a HUGE advantage to the hitter.

And Burns, in spite of that scouting, is now better at another school. If anything, he should be worse, given the advanced scouting available on him.

 

[taylorvol]

More specifically, technology exists that, literally a few minutes before first pitch, a hitter could step in the batting cage against an advanced pitching machine and see exact replicas of the opposing pitchers release points, his actual spin rates, his velocity, or they could re-create any of their previous at bats against the pitcher in real time. There’s even a projection tool that can clone the pitchers body. It’s a game changer for the hitter and why you’re seeing Pitchers decline after a season or a few games of elite success.
It’s no longer just a “good Scout” but elite technology. I’m sure some hitters hit the cage once a new pitcher has been announced during the actual game so they can “face him” in the cage before actually facing the new Pitcher in the game. Game. Changer.

 

[taylorvol]

And Burns, in spite of that scouting, is now better at another school. If anything, he should be worse, given the advanced scouting available on him.

I don’t agree. Burns was elite starting mid season last year. He’s remained so at Wake this far.

 

[cobbwebb0710]

I wasn’t really talking about recruiting rankings, but yeah, #2 is a valid point. I also think the attempt to change CD’s arm angle last year hurt him.

But I still wonder about Burns. His trajectory can’t be explained by scouting. He got better at Wake and there is more film on him now than there was last year.

I think that’s a tough comparison because imo, Wake is onto something with the whole pitching lab thing.
Burns is an elite arm and is now in an elite program, as far as research and development.
We’re probably not to far away from every SEC school having their own “pitching lab.”
Some kids are going to develop and some won’t. Some kids will shine as freshman and some as 5th year seniors.
Almost all will slump at some point, but against high level SEC talent, is it really a slump? Or more of the competition being at the same level and just having their “moment?” I get your point about CFA, I just think your over thinking it and I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way.

 

[NighthawkVol]

I don’t agree. Burns was elite starting mid season last year. He’s remained so at Wake this far.

You mean he was elite in relief? He was a disaster as a starter last year.

 

[NighthawkVol]

I think that’s a tough comparison because imo, Wake is onto something with the whole pitching lab thing.
Burns is an elite arm and is now in an elite program, as far as research and development.
We’re probably not to far away from every SEC school having their own “pitching lab.”
Some kids are going to develop and some won’t. Some kids will shine as freshman and some as 5th year seniors.
Almost all will slump at some point, but against high level SEC talent, is it really a slump? Or more of the competition being at the same level and just having their “moment?” I get your point about CFA, I just think you’re over thinking it and I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way.

I’m guilty of overthinking a lot.

Great points.

 

[taylorvol]

You mean he was elite in relief? He was a disaster as a starter last year.

I think he made some adjustments mid-season last year which made him elite as a Pitcher (starter or reliever).

 

[spyfish007]

For Burns it was all in his head. He went through a sophomore slump and that is also mental. Look at Blake Burke. His early year last year was not good. He came around towards the playoffs. Burns was getting rocked early season as a starter probably because of scouting. It was mental at that point. Let it go.

 

[cobbwebb0710]

More specifically, technology exists that, literally a few minutes before first pitch, a hitter could step in the batting cage against an advanced pitching machine and see exact replicas of the opposing pitchers release points, his actual spin rates, his velocity, or they could re-create any of their previous at bats against the pitcher in real time. There’s even a projection tool that can clone the pitchers body. It’s a game changer for the hitter and why you’re seeing Pitchers decline after a season or a few games of elite success.
It’s no longer just a “good Scout” but elite technology. I’m sure some hitters hit the cage once a new pitcher has been announced during the actual game so they can “face him” in the cage before actually facing the new Pitcher in the game. Game. Changer.

You definitely are on to something!
Eventually guys like Frank Anderson will be replaced by a computer. The old school way of doing it, will be just that...old school.
A simulator will factor in the hitters strengths, weaknesses and real time game scenarios and will project what pitch should be thrown, scanners and AI will teach the art of coaching technique.

 

[NighthawkVol]

For Burns it was all in his head. He went through a sophomore slump and that is also mental. Look at Blake Burke. His early year last year was not good. We came around towards the playoffs. Burns was getting rocked early season as a starter probably because of scouting. It was mental at that point. Let it go.

Burke also went from a platoon DH facing mostly righties to a full time 1B. He had to learn how to hit lefties. He seems to have done so this year.

I do think you’re right that what Burns went through was mental. Most of pitching is.

Let what go? We’re having a discussion on a message board.

 

[Volprofch05]

But at what point do we ask if Frank Anderson isn’t the pitching savant he’s been made out to be? I know, I know…but consider:

-Chase Burns got worse his 2nd year at UT. Now he’s good again at Wake.
-Dollander got worse his 2nd year at UT. His junior year cost him millions.
-Beam has now gotten worse in his junior year. His junior year may be costing him millions.

The last AJ Russell outing was really poorly managed. 6 walks and 2 hits in 2.2 innings? 69 pitches and gets injured. No way he should’ve been in that long, both because he didn’t have it and because he was coming back from an injury.

For years, we’ve discussed Frank’s belief in not worrying about base runners. Less justifiable when pitchers aren’t getting guys out and missing bats.

There are some bad trends with UT pitchers over the last few years. On the other hand, he did a great job with Walsh, Kirby, Hunley, and others. Maybe he’s better with the lower velocity crafty pitchers than the guys who come in with great stuff and high velocity?

I think it’s worth considering at this point, given that all 3 of those tremendous 2022 weekend starters eventually got worse at UT. I’m not saying he’s a bad pitching coach or that he isn’t a good one. But maybe he isn’t the elite coach we’ve deemed him to be.

This is a bit of a heel turn for you NHV

 

[preacherman20]

My point is there is no one who is doing it greater than Frank because that is the trend in the SEC. Hitters catch up with pitchers and they struggle in their second or third year according to how much they have thrown.
Chase got his mind right after he went to the bullpen and is now excelling as a starter again and I have to believe that Frank was a part of getting him right. He worked with him more than any other pitcher last year to get not just his mechanics but mind back where it needed to be so he is excelling but not greater than he did as a closer at the end of last year. His numbers are actually down from the end of the season when he was coming out of the bullpen.
I also say that many of the pitchers in their second or third year also start pitching to the scouts rather than pitching for the team. They get so worried about velo that they forget about pitching but become velo chasers. You see it up and down the rosters in college baseball.

 

[taylorvol]

You definitely are on to something!
Eventually guys like Frank Anderson will be replaced by a computer. The old school way of doing it, will be just that...old school.
A simulator will factor in the hitters strengths, weaknesses and real time game scenarios and will project what pitch should be thrown, scanners and AI will teach the art of coaching technique.

I’m not suggesting tech replaces Coaching. It’s another tool that’s being leveraged and baseball is a game of repetition. No better way to get reps against an elite pitcher than leveraging advanced pitching simulators. The human element will always be a huge factor. You can’t replace what CTV and CFA bring to the table. You can replace CTV throwing BP.

 

[GOBO-Baseball02]

For Burns it was all in his head. He went through a sophomore slump and that is also mental. Look at Blake Burke. His early year last year was not good. He came around towards the playoffs. Burns was getting rocked early season as a starter probably because of scouting. It was mental at that point. Let it go.

Good...I mean "great" pitching coaches should be able to help with the mental part of the game.

 

[GOBO-Baseball02]

1. Don’t put a lot of stock into recruiting rankings.
2. Scouting is on a different level and it’s hard to remain at an elite level, when you are facing SEC, elite level scouting, coaching, hitting and fielding.

Great post Nighthawk and I totally agree.

 

[GOBO-Baseball02]

So you are saying he is successful Because I would say it is a college coach's job to spot talent, call pitches and win ballgames. Name a player that he has not developed that went somewhere else and was more successful as a pitcher. Please don't tell me Chase Burns.

A bit of a loaded question. For the ones that got drafted I say how much higher could they have gone had they been developed. And you don't get a bye on Chase Burns. That was a massive fail on Tennessee's part.

Here we have all these freshman and as I've said, just too many pitchers to get Franks attention. But that's the system. "Get in a lot, play the ones that are hot"

You want one example, I'll give you more that have gone on to be better...

Chase Burns, a massive fail on all levels. Couldn't give him enough $ to stay, couldn't fix the mental, couldn't fix the mechanics. But look at him now.

Ben Joyce, underutilized at Tennessee because Frank couldn't get him under control. Played in low leverage situations. Remember how they brought him in on Friday night against Notre Dame (Super Regional) in like the 7th inning and we were losing like 8-1. Look at him now. Probably could have been drafted a lot higher but to quote Tony "I didn't know what to do with him". Apparently Frank didn't either.

Dollander, ERA increased as the year went on, finished with a 4.75 ERA. I would have thought working with the best that would have gone down.

Beam going thru a rough spot. Good day yesterday though. Let's see if Frank can get him to be the player we all think he can be.

Grant Cherry, underutilized, hit the portal, now thriving at Long Beach State.

Jake Fitzgibbons, underutilized, ERA was erratic - ended with a 3.75 ERA. Still got drafted, probably could have gone higher had UT helped him.

Aaron Combs, underutilized, great arm, ERA over 5.28 right now.

Andrew Behnke, underutilized, a lefty with current 1.80 ERA and last time pitched was mid March. (Is he hurt?)

Zach Joyce, underutilized, hurt early, but then pitched a few innings after that injury, went to the cape, got drafted, placed in Single A where he thrived. Could have been higher draft had they used him. But look at him now.

....And how about all those the hung it up (ie: Hunter Sloop, etc.) that just simply did not get the help. But here we are with all these freshman because so many other guys left the game, for the draft, or portal, because they were not developed and/or used.

 

[volplaya8]

Smdh…I am getting highly irritated today…

 

[taylorvol]

You mean he was elite in relief? He was a disaster as a starter last year.

I should have rephrased that to Burns was elite beginning mid-season last year.