If a Saban Crony couldn't right the ship, why would we expect an AAC coach to do it?

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#101
#101
GUNTERSVOL said:
It would not be hard to find I was of the opinion that if we could not get a generally accepted homerun hire that we should go the Steele interim route while the NCAA dust settled and we could establish what a coach would be dealing with next cycle. I think we have had to enter the replacement market too late or danced to long with several of our hires and should have considered this option.

But like with every hire I will hope that we have selected wisely or plain old got lucky and the coach selected and the circumstances produce the results we hope for. I feared getting Kiffin off the Al Davis scrap heap, thought we were banking on heredity with Dooley, was hoping that Butch would continue to grow and progress like he did on his first two stops following his more successful mentor, and thought maybe just maybe Pruitt had paid attention to the methodologies of a string of bosses on top of his X's and O's expertise. They, somewhat like this guy, arrived with risk/reward issues. We know the rest.

Specifically on our new coach, I will be hoping, not counting on, that he has taken the best advantage of the learning opportunities he has had in the college game. It would also not be hard to find I have no love for the air that surrounds the Pirate. I like the results of his offensive strategies but his whole public demeanor not so much. The end of the MSU bowl game pretty much furthered my dislike for him as a face of a program. So I hope Josh absorbed the OC/QB coach elements, but passed on the rest of his attributes. On the other hand, though never a real fan of his HC and later boss Stoops, I remember hearing positive things about the way he put his staff together and how he required that they fulfill their family responsibilities as well as their coaching duties. In a lot of ways I think Oklahoma is a peer in the CFB world. He did it well and got out on his own terms much closer to the top of his game. Hope he took notes there. Not sure what he could have or should have picked up from his MO days, Odom seemed to be a class guy, so no bad habits maybe. He seems to have done reasonably well at UCF with the resources available and expect he has learned a few lessons at that level he can avoid at this level. Does it translate well? Can he grow to meet the demands of this level of CFB? Probably will depend on how he applies the lessons learned at each of those stops. There seems to be a progression. But at least there is a basis for having reasonable expectations of decent odds for him having success. Enough, fast enough? Only time will tell. But a pretty good starting point from where I sit.
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Wow, that was a good read, Gunters. Thanks for it.

The big paragraph, the one on Josh Heupel, I would only take exception to one aspect of it. It seems to be based on the idea that Heupel is purely the product of mentors he's had over the years. That he is nothing more or less than the sum of attributes he absorbed.

But that misses the point that Josh is, first and foremost, himself. Sure, he gets ideas and even some attitudes, from old bosses and friends and co-workers. We all do. But he's a lot more than just that. His base is him. And you can get a feel for who he is just by listening to him talk to the press, watching his "miked up" practice videos being posted in different threads, and so on.

With that as a prism, I don't think you have to worry about Josh Heupel becoming much like Mike Leach. He doesn't give off that vibe at all. Mike Leach is flighty, bright but unfocused, quick to shift topic or reverse position on any issue. Josh is grounded, measured and introspective. Very different people.

In fact, I'd say Josh shares a lot more personality traits with Bob Stoops, though it is not because they worked together. It's simply who they both are. Quiet, competent professionals.

I join you in hoping we've selected wisely in our new head coach, and that he will in turn select wisely with his assistants. So far, so good, it seems to me.

Go Vols!
 
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#103
#103
How many coordinators are just there to run a few drills while Saban calls the shots? Just my opinion but Saban runs a tight ship. That's why he's still undefeated when he matches against former coordinators.
 
#106
#106
Why are some of you so obsessed with former Saban guys? Every single time they proove to be a product of his system and not the other way around yet some still think hiring a Saban assistant means winning titles.
 
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#107
#107
VFL-82-JP said:
Wow, that was a good read, Gunters. Thanks for it.

The big paragraph, the one on Josh Heupel, I would only take exception to one aspect of it. It seems to be based on the idea that Heupel is purely the product of mentors he's had over the years. That he is nothing more or less than the sum of attributes he absorbed.

But that misses the point that Josh is, first and foremost, himself. Sure, he gets ideas and even some attitudes, from old bosses and friends and co-workers. We all do. But he's a lot more than just that. His base is him. And you can get a feel for who he is just by listening to him talk to the press, watching his "miked up" practice videos being posted in different threads, and so on.

With that as a prism, I don't think you have to worry about Josh Heupel becoming much like Mike Leach. He doesn't give off that vibe at all. Mike Leach is flighty, bright but unfocused, quick to shift topic or reverse position on any issue. Josh is grounded, measured and introspective. Very different people.

In fact, I'd say Josh shares a lot more personality traits with Bob Stoops, though it is not because they worked together. It's simply who they both are. Quiet, competent professionals.

I join you in hoping we've selected wisely in our new head coach, and that he will in turn select wisely with his assistants. So far, so good, it seems to me.
Go Vols!
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I believe like you do that he does not show much impact of the Pirate in his demeanor. Not exactly Stoops either. Kind of reminds me of another favorite of mine CUT when on stage.... maybe a little more demonstrative. He has had the opportunity to see and experience methods employed at this level of football at his stops prior to UCF and that may be important. I have long wondered if that was Butch's downfall. He has this opportunity in front of him and I hope that our AD's rating was in fact earned, and that his relationship with CJH reduces some moving parts and simplifies his efforts to get a good to great staff on board as this will be the next critical step in our recovery from where we have been most recently. Don't know how to tell if he is good at selecting, delegating and putting staff efforts together on each side of the ball. But we all will know soon enough. This time next year we will have a clue as to his ability to recruit here, though really it might be the second year with trend analysis to give us the real answers. The right mix of players with the right staff construction is still the target as usual.
 
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#108
#108
Rocky Top Raby said:
Why are some of you so obsessed with former Saban guys? Every single time they proove to be a product of his system and not the other way around yet some still think hiring a Saban assistant means winning titles.
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Well, Foolmer tried that. So now it has been tried. And it bit us in the ayness. They need to figure out what all has been broken all along, fix it, and give this guy his best shot.
 
#109
#109
buckfama said:
There is nothing to defend because he has zero body of work at UT.

You're in every thread throwing a tantrum. We get it, you're the kid who didn't get what he wanted so he lays face down in the aisle at Walmart kicking and screaming. We all know your unhappy and honestly just wish you would go home now. The act is old.
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I bet he wanted Kiffin or Freeze :rolleyes:
 
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#117
#117
Rickyvol77 said:
I bet he wanted Kiffin or Freeze :rolleyes:
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Heck. It doesn't matter who, because none of us saw this hire coming.

And Heupel may not be the hire we wanted, but he might be what we needed. Even if he can just bring some wins and stabilize the program and make the job more attractive for a bigger name later on down the road.
 
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#119
#119
The Tall Gguy said:
Discuss
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I think you answered your own question and don’t even realize it. With every other coach we’ve hired, the expectations have been championships or bust. Now the mindset is a little different and Heupel has been hired with the mindset of “righting the ship” I don’t think reasonable fans are going to put huge expectations on him, due to the state of our program and NCAA sanctions hanging over our heads. If this guy can keep this program afloat and bring us back to being respected and add some stability, then imo he’s accomplished what he was hired to do.
GBO!!
 
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#120
#120
The Tall Gguy said:
The coaching "standard" on here is SaBan. So I feel like this is actually a valid question. As to Hoople, probably a great guy. I just have a hard time getting past the last 3 failed hires where all the same defenses of the hires were being made. I will stop posting negative things about Hoople and give him a chance, not because you told me to, but because I have no choice. He is here and apparently Volnation is not a place where you can express an opinion.
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So since people disagree with you... you want to play the victim now? Is Volnation not a place for them to disagree with you?

What you are doing does not make sense. It does not make sense because it will not and should not change anything at this point in time. We do not even know if it is a mistake or not yet. If 3 years in there's insufficient progress then let's discuss it and look back to see if there are lessons to learn from when and how he was hired.

For now, state what you think his expectations should be.... and then let's watch to see how much progress he makes toward meeting them. I've personally lowered the bar a little. I think the NCAA stuff hurts. I want to see credible offense, a competitive team, and improvement within each year and year over year. I would have called 8 wins in year three a failure by any of the previous 3 coaches. I think the situations they inherited made something better "reasonable". I think Heupel will have been successful if he can win 8 games in year 3 and be competitive in the rest.

Heupel would not have been my first choice all things being equal. But they aren't equal. UT has had a series of bad hires and failure. Now UT has the NCAA axe hanging over their heads too. I have very little doubt that some big $$$ was flashed but that bigger "names" were not willing to take the risk. To me the "big" names would have been guys like Fickell and Freeze... maybe even Malzahn though I would have hated that hire. IMO if takes $6 million to hire Napier or Chadwell... you can get less risk with a guy like Heupel without paying the extra. Maybe that money can go to paying a good staff.
 
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#121
#121
Does Saban really produce/develop great coaches from his assistants? I'm not talking about his rehab cases . . . guys like Kiffin and Sark were pretty darn good elsewhere. They came to Bama in order to recover from past missteps under the protective stability of Saban, Inc.

What really top-flight head coaches have grown up under Saban? Asking an honest question here because I don't know of any. Seems like Saban is successful because he tightly controls the operation.

To use a military history example, Thomas Jackson was an effective commander on the spot during battles, but he was also a paranoid control freak who did NOTHING to develop or utilize his staff. He didn't empower initiative. Instead, he drove his formations forward personally - The consequence was that if he wasn't right on the spot when something changed, it could easily turn out disastrous without him to make personal adjustments to orders, etc. Is Saban like that? It seems like Bill Bellichick is the same in the NFL. His assistants have largely flamed out when they try to go have success away from the protective shield of their old boss.

We've tried two Saban products in Knoxville already. Both were, to put it mildly, terrible.
 
#122
#122
Rickyvol77 said:
Cristobal is 52-57 as a coach, i just dont see much appeal IMO other than he has more HC experience in the weakest P5 conference. I mean he wanted to quit coaching football all together twice and has stated he might consider it again
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He did coach FIU and went to two bowls. Gotta have some leeway with where he was before Oregon.
 
#123
#123
Chad F said:
To use a military history example, Thomas Jackson was an effective commander on the spot during battles, but he was also a paranoid control freak who did NOTHING to develop or utilize his staff. He didn't empower initiative. Instead, he drove his formations forward personally - The consequence was that if he wasn't right on the spot when something changed, it could easily turn out disastrous without him to make personal adjustments to orders, etc. Is Saban like that? It seems like Bill Bellichick is the same in the NFL. His assistants have largely flamed out when they try to go have success away from the protective fold of their old boss.
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.
 
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#124
#124
buckfama said:
Heck. It doesn't matter who, because none of us saw this hire coming.

And Heupel may not be the hire we wanted, but he might be what we needed. Even if he can just bring some wins and stabilize the program and make the job more attractive for a bigger name later on down the road.
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I think thats kinda what the University wanted. Someone who runs a clean program and gets the wheels rolling again. He might not be a splash hire but if he gets us back to being stable its a small victory. I thought the same thing you did.
 
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#125
#125
peaygolf said:
He also owned slaves...............take down the Jefferson Memorial and disregard the Constitution, since he wrote most of it:oops:
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Umm...

Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson and Thomas Jefferson are two different people. They lived in different centuries, even. Both from Virginia, and both owned slaves, yes. But Stonewall didn't write the Constitution. He lived about a century too late for that.
 
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