Income (in)equality in the United States

#101
#101
bam15 said:
Touche.

They are still receiving more money whether it is through entitlements, tax plans, etc. I'm not arguing whether that is right or wrong, but rather the facts -- whether it is in their actual interests or my perceived judgment.
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I hear you but the the What's Wrong with Kansas argument is often used to imply certain groups are too dumb to know what's good for them.
 
#102
#102
DC Vol said:
Customer service for Dell, Microsoft (i.e. huge multinational companies) are in India.

There is still a huge market for localized IT support that cannot be outsourced to India. I have friends that work for a temp service that rebuilds workstations and computers and most businesses have turned to them instead of dealing with someone from India or Bangledesh. There were some attempts to export coding jobs overseas but that failed in most cases and those jobs are finding their way back to the US.
If it can't be answered by a pre-written script in broken English, it can't be answered. That isn't going to cut it for most companies that can afford to spend a little more for a local, more knowledgeable person.
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That's not been my experience. The company that I work for is large and global, and a large and quickly growing percentage of the new development is being done in India. We states-side IT people have to hand hold them through the process and they keep telling us that the ongoing support will be returned to us, but none of it has yet come back, and of course, the folks in India are gradually getting better at it. The latest word from management is that they have "more interesting plans" for us, and I really hope those plans don't involve pink slips.

Of course, I'm always keeping my eyes open for other opportunities, but they sure do seem to be scarce and heavily applied for these days.
 
#103
#103
Cost of living needs to get lowered drastically so wages can be decreased and the country becomes more competitive. If this does not get fixed this country is done.
 
#105
#105
bam15 said:
In some circumstances, that is absolutely true.
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My bet is that it is less than people think.

The old "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" line is way over used.

I'd like to see a plot of the growth in government and govt programs over the same time period as the income data that started this thread.
 
#106
#106
volinbham said:
My bet is that it is less than people think.

The old "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" line is way over used.

I'd like to see a plot of the growth in government and govt programs over the same time period as the income data that started this thread.
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Don't want to see said plot.
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#107
#107
volinbham said:
My bet is that it is less than people think.

The old "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" line is way over used.

I'd like to see a plot of the growth in government and govt programs over the same time period as the income data that started this thread.
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I was actually curious to see that data in tandem with the influx and inflation of social programs.
 
#108
#108
I don't mind seeing more people in college. The standards being lowered to accommodate that is what upsets me. It's really not challenging enough. The more students that fail out the worse your department looks. And that shouldn't be the case. I had a 3.8 in nuclear engineering, and I don't believe that distinguishes me as much as it should. I got my Master's so that would help, but it did little. It's still who you know, especially when you have to traverse through the hell holes known as HR departments.
 
#109
#109
I am also curious to see another angle here:

In the last 20 years a lot of jobs (mostly lower-middle class) have relocated to the South, where CoL is substantially lower. That has an affect on salary (on paper). Whereas the top earners will, more than likely, still be in urban areas where the CoL has only gone up.

I.E. I left the DC area (without disclosing actual values) to take an equivalent job in Huntsville for almost 40% less. Though, that affords me a higher QoL here as housing is worlds cheaper. Incomes should be calculated by zip-code and then flat-lined to give an actual mean. There might not be an actual, substantive decline.

I.E. $65,000/year in the Atlanta area would need to jump up to roughly $130-140K/year to maintain an equivalent Quality of Life as almost every value is at least 2x. Housing is 3x in San Fran.




This 100% does not negate the point about education. That system needs to be completely overhauled.
 
#110
#110
DC Vol said:
I am also curious to see another angle here:

In the last 20 years a lot of jobs (mostly lower-middle class) have relocated to the South, where CoL is substantially lower. That has an affect on salary (on paper). Whereas the top earners will, more than likely, still be in urban areas where the CoL has only gone up.

I.E. I left the DC area (without disclosing actual values) to take an equivalent job in Huntsville for almost 40% less. Though, that affords me a higher QoL here as housing is worlds cheaper. Incomes should be calculated by zip-code and then flat-lined to give an actual mean. There might not be an actual, substantive decline.

I.E. $65,000/year in the Atlanta area would need to jump up to roughly $130-140K/year to maintain an equivalent Quality of Life as almost every value is at least 2x. Housing is 3x in San Fran.




This 100% does not negate the point about education. That system needs to be completely overhauled.
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Cheaper CoL along with increased govt bennies (or lower taxes) means that stagnant real wages may still represent an increase in buying power. It doesn't address the gap growth but does make that gap less meaningful.

Someone said it earlier, are people worse off, better off or the same.
 
#111
#111
volinbham said:
Cheaper CoL along with increased govt bennies (or lower taxes) means that stagnant real wages may still represent an increase in buying power. It doesn't address the gap growth but does make that gap less meaningful.

Someone said it earlier, are people worse off, better off or the same.
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I remember this debate a while ago. It's impossible to quantify as a person's "quality of life" is entirely circumstantial. I know I enjoyed living in DC more than here. Is that an important angle when considering QoL? I don't think so, but I'm sure people will say "the inability to walk to the grocery store or take the metro into work affects my QoL".


I was moreso addressing jobs like automotive manufacturing that have found homes in the SE. Friend of mine took a job at a Toyota making mid $20s/hour in Mississippi. That same job, with Union, was worth upwards of $40/hour in Michigan. Then again, is Mississippi worse than Detroit?
 
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#112
#112
DC Vol said:
I remember this debate a while ago. It's impossible to quantify as a person's "quality of life" is entirely circumstantial. I know I enjoyed living in DC more than here. Is that an important angle when considering QoL? I don't think so, but I'm sure people will say "the inability to walk to the grocery store or take the metro into work affects my QoL".


I was moreso addressing jobs like automotive manufacturing that have found homes in the SE. Friend of mine took a job at a Toyota making mid $20s/hour in Mississippi. That same job, with Union, was worth upwards of $40/hour in Michigan. Then again, is Mississippi worse than Detroit?
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Linking QoL to income and income inequality seems a bit of a stretch. CoL (cost of living) is more directly linked since it gets to buying power for a given level of income.

I would think 20 in Miss = 40 in Detroit but neither is necessarily linked to QoL which is very individualistic IMHO. Money don't buy happiness!
 
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#113
#113
volinbham said:
Linking QoL to income and income inequality seems a bit of a stretch. CoL (cost of living) is more directly linked since it gets to buying power for a given level of income.

I would think 20 in Miss = 40 in Detroit but neither is necessarily linked to QoL which is very individualistic IMHO. Money don't buy happiness!
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Agree 100%. It's a factor, but not the ultimate decider.
 
#114
#114
volinbham said:
My bet is that it is less than people think.

The old "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" line is way over used.

I'd like to see a plot of the growth in government and govt programs over the same time period as the income data that started this thread.
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I provided one that compared gov't spending overall to a similar plot posted by gibbs... They largely mirrior each other. I think ours went back to the 60's though.

It is a myth that Dems have successfully sold for almost 100 years now.... that the "rich" pay taxes. Most of them don't. They collect taxes. Taxes are just another cost of doing business passed on to either the consumer or employee through higher prices or lower wages. Whatever taxes they do actually end up owing will be blunted by loopholes installed by the politicians they own.


But my prediction is that LG, gibbs, and millions like them will continue to buy the "elect me and I will solve your problems by taxing the rich" line.
 
#115
#115
volinbham said:
My bet is that it is less than people think.

The old "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" line is way over used.

I'd like to see a plot of the growth in government and govt programs over the same time period as the income data that started this thread.
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Are you proposing that the growth in the size of government has a direct correlation with income inequality?
 
#117
#117
volinbham said:
correlation perhaps - not necessarily causation but I'm open to that argument as well :)
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:p

Perhaps you could explain more. Is it the old M. Friedman argument that minimum wage/entitlements/public housing etc. keep the poor from advancing any further?
 
#118
#118
bam15 said:
:p

Perhaps you could explain more. Is it the old M. Friedman argument that minimum wage/entitlements/public housing etc. keep the poor from advancing any further?
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Not sure if it "keeps", but it does allow the option to live that way.
 
#119
#119
Volst53 said:
The problem comes in the thinking that every student is made to go to college. There needs to be an option starting in middle school that kids can start learning and going to a trade school if they want. I don't understand why this country thinks having a skilled labor force is a bad thing.
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AMEN! PREACH BROTHER!
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#120
#120
bam15 said:
:p

Perhaps you could explain more. Is it the old M. Friedman argument that minimum wage/entitlements/public housing etc. keep the poor from advancing any further?
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Minimum wage can have and does have a direct impact on how businesses use their "cheap" labor force. It is the sole reason why jobs are being shipped over seas. There is no other reason.

I will give an example. If I can hire onbe employee at 7.5 an hour or two employees at 5 per hour there is a very good chance I will hite two employees since the production will out weigh the additional 2.5 per hour in gross overhead. But two at 15 will probably bring my net gain to 0. Hiring two workers now places more dollar into the symbiotic circle.

I personally am headed to Bacolod sometime in the 2 quarter to make a final decision if I will move my call center there. My decision is based 100% on wage rate as 85% of my business overhead is wages. If I move the center I will be terminating roughly 100 employees.
 
#123
#123
I know you weren't leaving. I'm just saying if i could make it work any way possible. I'd rather keep jobs here.
 
#124
#124
bam15 said:
:p

Perhaps you could explain more. Is it the old M. Friedman argument that minimum wage/entitlements/public housing etc. keep the poor from advancing any further?
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Well when you qualify it as "old M. Friedman" argument it's clear what you view is.

I don't know that govt cheese has any effect positive or negative. Those selling it though rely firmly on a view that a lending hand from Uncle Sam is the hand up that folks need.

I'm suggesting that 40 years of data exists that may challenge that old "hand up" argument. A "voting against their economic interests" argument also relies on the idea that the hand up from the gov has a positive effect. I've yet to see compelling data that is the case. Proponents of this view often argue we haven't done enough (kinda like the stimulus) as a way to explain the non-conclusive data. Could it be that all that govt intervention has been for naught?


I also have a suspicion that the hand up can become a crutch and if that makes me a M. Friedman clone then so be it. Unfortunately, the data is inconclusive so we have to fall back on political philosophy rather than scientific proof.
 
#125
#125
volinbham said:
For those unsettled by this data, what do you propose?
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1. Strong regulations on capital flight
2. Simple, transparent, and progressive tax code with supertax on speculation transactions
3. Destroying the Santa Clara vs Pacific Railroad Supreme Court Decision; break-up of monopoly capital
4. Strict laws on executive compensation relating it to the lowest paid employees at the company, including bonus structures
5. National Health Service, single payer system
6. Manhattan Project II decarbonizing grid, transport, and agriculture
7. Education *

There are others as well, but it may be best to end on a little lecture:

One of the few great thinkers of the 20th century, John Rawls, developed a theory of justice. In a thought experiment behind "the veil of ignorance" where no one new where they would be in life when the veil is raised (trust fund kid, black Angolan in UNITA territory, middle class Italian, Michael Jordan, etc) the system of justice people would adopt would not be utilitarianism, but rather they would tolerate inequality so long as it worked for the least advantaged.

These are 20th century thoughts, but instead we are going 12th century - feudal. It is important to reverse the reversals of the last forty years which has seen the greatest wealth redistribution in history - from the bottom to the tip-top.
 
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