Iran & Saudi Arabia Moving Closer Together

#51
#51
Vol737 said:
What's done is now done. Considering our ties to Saudi, like them or not, a smart State Department would ask how we use SA/Iran renewed relations to our advantage to try to keep a lid on the ME, in particular Iran's nuclear ambitions. We should also continue to strengthen recent SA/ Israeli ties going forward. No doubt this is a play by China with ulterior motives which aren't too hard to figure out, but Iran doesn't even enter the conversation, much less the room, if it was a proposed SA/US/Iran sit down.
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The ulterior motives I see is that they are in the business of doing business and making sure they have a steady supply of energy from these guys. A stable ME is good for business.

The US isn't in the business of doing business. We just c*ckblock countries from developing with sanctions, threats and war if they don't toe the line. We also don't believe in mutually beneficial trade. The Chinese and Russians are offering an alternative.
 
#54
#54
Rasputin_Vol said:
Convince me that China brokering a peace deal between KSA and Iran is nefarious? And compare what China has been doing with playing peacemaker and trying to build infrastructure in Eurasia and Africa is bad/nefarious, but Team America provoking wars and destroying infrastructure is being good.
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Those infrastructure deals come with completely impossible terms. When those terms arent met by the host country, China ends up literally owning some huge piece of infrastructure or resources. See Sri Lanka's Hambantota Port, I think there is also an airport--road--port they also own in Africa but i cant remember that name. There was also the Nicarguan Canal which gained China control of territory and any resources for just 2 years of work before abandoning it.

The only reason these the host government ever agrees is because the officials that push it are bribed. Again you can look at Sri Lanka.

And by impossible terms, I mean far worse than anything the West ever thought of. They plan these mega projects, come up with a value they would produce when operating at full operation, which would be several years after it was completed. They tell the host country that production would be the net profit, and not the total. They then make payments required upon a planned completion date. Payments due upon that date regardless of completion. And they tell the host country the number is net profit because the bill for construction always comes in just under that, so it looks like it will always net the country a profit. Small at first, then large once the chinese have been paid off. Since it was all a pipe dream the chinese know they will never get paid and that they will control something with full rights to the land where the project was supposed to be. These projects are usually built and managed by the chinese so that even if it does get built the host country rarely sees any profit as all that money is funnelled back into the Chinese pockets for operating costs. So instead of pumping money into the local economy and creating good paying jobs these countries tend to assume will be there, they get another net drain.

So far I only know of 1 project that has been successful for the locals. Chichari-olgarz, down in Argentina or Chile. It's a lithium production plant, finished in 2013. And that's only because the price of lithium went up 10x since then, instead of the 3x China predicted in their model. And even still the plant has come close to defaulting to the Chinese. That's the type of crazy return these countries actually have to get to come out ahead.
 
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#56
#56
Everything about our foreign policy and strategy is in the dumps. It won't get any better during this administration. So many incompetent bureaucrats will have to be identified and fired. They know it so 2024 will be seismic.
 
#60
#60
WoodsmanVol said:
I think China is exploiting overt and covert resentment of USA hypocrisy, economic bullying, unwelcome nose in everybody's business, and general manipulative policies. Not that other nations are innocent of any, if not all, of these things. But the USA is the foremost practitioner of it, and quite blatant about it. The Chinese know this and are positioning themselves to undermine USA policy, friendships, and influence. We ain't seen nothing yet. They know that direct military confrontation is a losing option for them, but combing a game of chess and whack-a-mole, is quite doable as the foundation, sadly, has already been lain by America itself. Added to this is the gradual internal collapsing of American society by its traditional divisionism, suppression of its minorities, biased attitudes and greedy exploitations toward all others who aren't elitists, China thinks the iron is hot, so strike now, but with patient and subtle tactics.
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You had me right up until you threw in “suppression of its minorities”…. Then you ruined it
 
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#64
#64
EasternVol said:
Interesting. I wonder what's going on between best buds KSA and Israel.
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Don't know, but the USA is/was stupid to trust the Saudis, they play both sides Russia $ USA) just as Turkey does.
Sad to say, but Trump courted the Saudis too, even gave them some of our highest tech weapons. I had hoped his being a hardliner would put a stop to this continuing folly. It is just plain stupid on our part. You those conniving imps don't share the blueprints with Putin? HA!
--https://abcnews.go.com/International/truth-president-trumps-110-billion-saudi-arms-deal/story?id=47874726
--https://thehill.com/policy/defense/532002-trump-administration-approves-290m-bomb-sale-to-saudi/
 
#66
#66
WBO said:
Do you really think the Saudis are willing to risk the Chinese money markets? There's a reason our bonds are still the safest investment in the world. The Saudis keep talking about building an economic machine outside of oil. High risk doesn't work with that.
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Countries are going to be dumping US denominated assets now that they see that the US has weaponized the USD and see the US printing the dollar into oblivion.

WBO said:
Plus they now see the qualitative difference between NATO weaponry and Russian technology based weapons. Whose military do you want on your side in a tough spot.
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LOL... the KSA indeed saw first hand the difference. Not just in Ukraine, but in their war with Yemen.
 
#67
#67
Gandalf said:
And yet, this isnt happening under the Bad Orange Man's administration, who was BOTH America First AND prevent China from growing.
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Can someone explain how China growing (or shrinking) has anything to do with us? Why can't we just focus on ourselves?

Gandalf said:
Instead, we have team Biden, who is NOT America First and doing everything it can to improve China's situation (including not leading a world wide lawsuit against them to pay for Covid damage).
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Sir, if you go that route, you may find the US to be just as culpable, if not more so, as China.
 
#68
#68
OrangeTsar said:
Minimizing foreign entanglements is a laudable goal. Getting directly involved is a boatload of troubles. But reflexively putting our national head in the sand like Limburg and the “American First” movement of the 1930s is how you wind up with Hitler and Pearl Harbor.
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Your lack of history shows.

Hitler was created by the Treaty of Versailles and the harsh reparations after WWI. It had absolutely nothing to do with non-interventionalism.

Pearl Harbor happened precisely because we inserted ourselves in a conflict in Asia that was none of our business and placed oil embargo on Japan. Definitely cannot call that non-interventionalism.

OrangeTsar said:
Even in the days of American isolation, the US was able to be a world diplomatic leaders (see the negations to end the Russo-Japanese War of 1905).
We cannot simply step aside and give up world diplomacy leadership to Xi and company.
And actually, minimizing foreign intervention helps us be a diplomatic leader because we are seen more as an honest broker
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The US doesn't practice diplomacy. We practice bullying, threats, regime change and war.
 
#69
#69
OrangeTsar said:
It means we have neglected to even field a team and have in effect forfeited the game. World diplomacy abhors a vacuum. If we don’t lead, others with more nefarious motives will gladly step into the breech.
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Why are you projecting nefarious motives?

Also, I like how you said "more nefarious", indicating that the US has nefarious motives, but these other guys are "more" nefarious than us.
 
#70
#70
OrangeTsar said:
I am not sure i understand the questions. I do Not Support “Head in the Soil” of another nation unless absolutely necessary. I don’t think that is required for the US to simply work diplomatically to isolate Iran. We can do that simply with a competent State Department and an engaged President.
But if you have specific questions that I am not understanding, I apologize in advance
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What do you mean by "isolate"?
 
#72
#72
Vol737 said:
What's done is now done. Considering our ties to Saudi, like them or not, a smart State Department would ask how we use SA/Iran renewed relations to our advantage to try to keep a lid on the ME, in particular Iran's nuclear ambitions.
Click to expand...
Are you naive enough to think the nuclear question wasn't brought up in these negotiations?

Vol737 said:
We should also continue to strengthen recent SA/ Israeli ties going forward. No doubt this is a play by China with ulterior motives which aren't too hard to figure out, but Iran doesn't even enter the conversation, much less the room, if it was a proposed SA/US/Iran sit down.
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Well of course China gets something out of this. The Chinese are going around using diplomacy to bring enemies together, end conflicts and cutting economic deals that serves their interests. Meanwhile, the US looks to divide nations, start new wars and destroys economic progress to serve our interests.

Now which alternative would look more attractive to you?
 
#74
#74
Texting about Ukraine at 2:00 am?

Raz must be one of the following:
He's in Russia,
He has insomnia (my usual reason), or
He's an incel who couldn't get laid if he walked around with $100 bills falling out of his pockets.
 
#75
#75
Rasputin_Vol said:
Can someone explain how China growing (or shrinking) has anything to do with us? Why can't we just focus on ourselves?


Sir, if you go that route, you may find the US to be just as culpable, if not more so, as China.
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China is an adversary. If China's growth was because of something they were directly responsible for then ok, you accept that. We allowed China to become favored nation status and helped them become more than a wheat and rice producer. Our thirst for cheap goods at the expense of slave later has backfired. They have since grown their weak military to serve as a world threat. You don't help someone take your place.

You even saw during covid their refusal to have a transparent investigation into the origins. How do you solve the root cause and thus prevent it in the future if the origins are being hidden? I agree the US might have some culpability so I'm not sure how a lawsuit plays out unless you can prove they intentionally released it to the world.
 
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