Is it time to rethink John Calipari?

#51
#51
cwbytruckers said:
If he would just learn to mix a few more 4 year players in the mix. Throw in some upper class guys with 2 one and dones every year. He would have more titles.
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Probably. But I don't beat myself up over being the best recruiting school. With a little luck it might have been two or three. NCAAT is a crapshoot. He's been good,
 
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#52
#52
cwbytruckers said:
If he would just learn to mix a few more 4 year players in the mix. Throw in some upper class guys with 2 one and dones every year. He would have more titles.
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Does he have 1 title at UK. Seems like there has been enough talent to win more.
 
#55
#55
Josh Harrelson, and perhaps Daniel Orton and Alex Poythress are the only players in the UK-Calipari era that I can think of that made the NBA because of their affiliation with Cal and UK. Everyone else playing in the NBA from UK/Cal would have made it there on just about any path they chose.
 
#56
#56
No, that 9 months of coaching from Cal was the difference maker, propelling them to the NBA.

Was the name of the 30 for 30 "Plausible Deniability"?
 
#57
#57
cwbytruckers said:
If you think these players wouldnt have made it to the league without CoachCrookedArm your really off your meds.
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Guys like Bledsoe and even Cauley-Stein were far from guaranteed NBA players. Cal took a team starting Josh freaking Harrellson to the Final Four. This idea that he just rolls the ball out and never coaches is based on some ridiculous standard that he should win the title every single year
 
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#58
#58
2010 - Elite Eight
2011 - Final Four (lineup: Knight, Lamb, Miller, Jones, Harrellson)
2012 - national title
2013 - missed tourney
2014 - national title game
2015 - Final Four

"Anyone can do that"
 
#59
#59
NashVol11 said:
Guys like Bledsoe and even Cauley-Stein were far from guaranteed NBA players. Cal took a team starting Josh freaking Harrellson to the Final Four. This idea that he just rolls the ball out and never coaches is based on some ridiculous standard that he should win the title every single year
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Of course there are a few exceptions.
 
#61
#61
NashVol11 said:
Guys like Bledsoe and even Cauley-Stein were far from guaranteed NBA players. Cal took a team starting Josh freaking Harrellson to the Final Four. This idea that he just rolls the ball out and never coaches is based on some ridiculous standard that he should win the title every single year
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Sorry, but Eric Bledsoe was an NBA player from the day he stepped on campus for his 8 month rental at UK.

Cauley-Stein wasn't as refined as a Demarcus Cousins or KAT, but he had elite athleticism and was 7 feet tall, two things you can't teach. His profile was much more recognizable at UK than if he had gone to Kansas St., Oklahoma, or Oklahoma St., so he benefitted from that. But he was probably going to get a shot based solely on size and athleticism.
 
#62
#62
Switch Cal's roster with Barne's roster and you'll see completely different results in W/Ls. Cal might be a master motivator and salesman but his job has been a lot easier with two - three NBA players on his roster every year. He relies on talent alone to win games and if they're not clicking, you see the results. Take a look at his 2011 National Championship team. That team was unfairly loaded with talent that could have easily went 40-0 if not for that lucky buzzer beater at Indiana and crapping the bed against Vanderbilt in the SEC Championship game. Any freaking coach with a little bit of sense could have won it all with that squad. To say it's all Calipari's "elite coaching" is ridiculous. Maybe his elite recruiting is what's brought him success at Kentucky cause no other coach in the country recruits like he does. All I'm saying is there's better X's & O's coaches than Calipari who can win with less talent. They may not be winning National Championships every year but they're constantly having their team in the NCAA Tournament.
 
#63
#63
VolFreakJosh said:
Switch Cal's roster with Barne's roster and you'll see completely different results in W/Ls. Cal might be a master motivator and salesman but his job has been a lot easier with two - three NBA players on his roster every year. He relies on talent alone to win games and if they're not clicking, you see the results. Take a look at his 2011 National Championship team. That team was unfairly loaded with talent that could have easily went 40-0 if not for that lucky buzzer beater at Indiana and crapping the bed against Vanderbilt in the SEC Championship game. Any freaking coach with a little bit of sense could have won it all with that squad. To say it's all Calipari's "elite coaching" is ridiculous. Maybe his elite recruiting is what's brought him success at Kentucky cause no other coach in the country recruits like he does. All I'm saying is there's better X's & O's coaches than Calipari who can win with less talent. They may not be winning National Championships every year but they're constantly having their team in the NCAA Tournament.
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Cal went to the Final Four with Brandon Knight as his best player, Barnes lost in the Round of 32 with Kevin Durant. Clearly Barnes would be better
 
#64
#64
In fact, Barnes' career makes a pretty good case for Cal. People thought he couldn't coach up his talent because he didn't win with Durant, and shockingly, those people were wrong.
 
#65
#65
VolFreakJosh said:
Switch Cal's roster with Barne's roster and you'll see completely different results in W/Ls. Cal might be a master motivator and salesman but his job has been a lot easier with two - three NBA players on his roster every year. He relies on talent alone to win games and if they're not clicking, you see the results. Take a look at his 2011 National Championship team. That team was unfairly loaded with talent that could have easily went 40-0 if not for that lucky buzzer beater at Indiana and crapping the bed against Vanderbilt in the SEC Championship game. Any freaking coach with a little bit of sense could have won it all with that squad. To say it's all Calipari's "elite coaching" is ridiculous. Maybe his elite recruiting is what's brought him success at Kentucky cause no other coach in the country recruits like he does. All I'm saying is there's better X's & O's coaches than Calipari who can win with less talent. They may not be winning National Championships every year but they're constantly having their team in the NCAA Tournament.
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Of course there are better coaches. No one in their right mind should argue Cal is the best X and O's guy out there. But he's been more consistent than anyone else in getting far into the tournament. I think people underestimate how hard it is evaluating and building a new team every season, regardless of raw talent. If we get a few bounces in 2014 or 2015 and win another title we probably never have this conversation. Instead because we lose a few games in the Final Four/Title game Calipari is a failure.
 
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#66
#66
LittleCat said:
Of course there are better coaches. No one in their right mind should argue Cal is the best X and O's guy out there. But he's been more consistent than anyone else in getting far into the tournament. I think people underestimate how hard it is evaluating and building a new team every season, regardless of raw talent. If we get a few bounces in 2014 or 2015 and win another title we probably never have this conversation. Instead because we lose a few games in the Final Four/Title game Calipari is a failure.
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He is certainly no failure but isn't elite either.

Elite recruiting.
Average coach.

Needs a generational player to win a ship like A. Davis.
 
#68
#68
Yankee_Vol said:
How many other coaches have Finals Fours vacated at two different schools?
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Not many but Roy Williams needs at least a couple of Final Fours vactated if the academic fraud that's went on at North Carolina, happened to be true. He's another one who's sleazy as hell.
 
#69
#69
Outofmyvolcanmind said:
He is certainly no failure but isn't elite either.

Elite recruiting.
Average coach.

Needs a generational player to win a ship like A. Davis.
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You are indeed out of your volcan mind.

Average coach has won 83% of all his games as a coach. Average coach taking UK to four final fours. Average coach who builds a new team every season. Cal is no elite coach. But he's no average one either.
 
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#70
#70
LittleCat said:
You are indeed out of your volcan mind.

Average coach has won 83% of all his games as a coach. Average coach taking UK to four final fours. Average coach who builds a new team every season. Cal is no elite coach. But he's no average one either.
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Elite recruiting. I gave credit for that.
 
#71
#71
Yankee_Vol said:
How many other coaches have Finals Fours vacated at two different schools?
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How many coaches have taken three schools to final fours though? Vacated or not? The fact that it got vacated because a player was retroactively determined ineligible doesn't negate the fact he had some fantastic teams at schools that had no business going that four.

Meanwhile Lance Thomas is dropping 30,000 at a store after winning the title at Duke and no one, including the NCAA, cares.
 
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#72
#72
LittleCat said:
You are indeed out of your volcan mind.

Average coach has won 83% of all his games as a coach. Average coach taking UK to four final fours. Average coach who builds a new team every season. Cal is no elite coach. But he's no average one either.
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But look at his roster compared to everyone else's in the past? How many teams have had a Karl Anthony Towns, Anthony Davis, Malik Monk, Tyler Ullis, De'Aaron Fox, Devin Booker type of player? I already said that I give him full credit for recruiting the best but elite recruiting can overcome average coaching sometimes which is why Cal has had plenty success at UK. If Cal could coach as good as he recuits, I wouldn't be arguing with you over him being the best coach in College Basketball.
 
#73
#73
VolFreakJosh said:
Not many but Roy Williams needs at least a couple of Final Fours vactated if the academic fraud that's went on at North Carolina, happened to be true. He's another one who's sleazy as hell.
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The NCAA could step up and take titles away from UL, Duke, and UNC. Especially UL and UNC, who both had corrupt programs where there was a systematic effort to break rules to succeed. Meanwhile Memphis has a final four vacated even when the NCAA says that the staff/school had no knowledge of Rose having a fake test. Extremely hypocritical and absolutely shows that the entire system is a failure.
 
#74
#74
VolFreakJosh said:
Not many but Roy Williams needs at least a couple of Final Fours vactated if the academic fraud that's went on at North Carolina, happened to be true. He's another one who's sleazy as hell.
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Agreed. Williams is as dirty as they come
 
#75
#75
LittleCat said:
How many coaches have taken three schools to final fours though? Vacated or not? The fact that it got vacated because a player was retroactively determined ineligible doesn't negate the fact he had some fantastic teams at schools that had no business going that four.

Meanwhile Lance Thomas is dropping 30,000 at a store after winning the title at Duke and no one, including the NCAA, cares.
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Camby and Rose are/were 2 great college players. Without them does he make the FF with UMass or Memphis? Probably not. I'll give him credit as a recruiter.
 
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