Is it time to rethink John Calipari?

#76
#76
VolFreakJosh said:
But look at his roster compared to everyone else's in the past? How many teams have had a Karl Anthony Towns, Anthony Davis, Malik Monk, Tyler Ullis, De'Aaron Fox, Devin Booker type of player? I already said that I give him full credit for recruiting the best but elite recruiting can overcome average coaching sometimes which is why Cal has had plenty success at UK. If Cal could coach as good as he recuits, I wouldn't be arguing with you over him being the best coach in College Basketball.
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Duke had Tatum, Giles, Allen, Kennard, DeLaurier, Jones, Jackson, Bolden, Jefferson, etc. That's a massively loaded team. And what did Coach K get? A 2nd round exit. Evidently it's not as easy as recruiting massive classes and rolling the ball out.

Average coaching is going to the title game the Harrisons, WCS, Randle, and James Young starting? Or the Final Four with Harrellson, Jones, Knight, Liggins, and Miller? That's no 2012 or 2015 team at all.
 
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#77
#77
LittleCat said:
The NCAA could step up and take titles away from UL, Duke, and UNC. Especially UL and UNC, who both had corrupt programs where there was a systematic effort to break rules to succeed. Meanwhile Memphis has a final four vacated even when the NCAA says that the staff/school had no knowledge of Rose having a fake test. Extremely hypocritical and absolutely shows that the entire system is a failure.
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The NCAA is all about money. The Blue Bloods; UK, Duke, North Carolina, Kansas, big time programs is what makes them the big bucks. Look at all the fan support those teams bring to the table? Of course the NCAA is going to ignore any kind of violation they committ cause they want to protect their reputation. I agree with UL and NC deserving to have their Final Fours vacated. Honestly, I despise the NCAA cause they are corrupt as they come which is why it's a lot harder for me to get into college sports as I used too. I still cheer for UT in every sport but the way the NCAA handles situations is sickening.
 
#78
#78
Yankee_Vol said:
Camby and Rose are/were 2 great college players. Without them does he make the FF with UMass or Memphis? Probably not. I'll give him credit as a recruiter.
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Do the Bulls win titles without Jordan? No. Great logic. Somehow being a good recruiter is a mark against your ability as a coach now.
 
#79
#79
Outofmyvolcanmind said:
He is certainly no failure but isn't elite either.

Elite recruiting.
Average coach.

Needs a generational player to win a ship like A. Davis.
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Yankee_Vol said:
Camby and Rose are/were 2 great college players. Without them does he make the FF with UMass or Memphis? Probably not. I'll give him credit as a recruiter.
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Again, Barnes had Durant, and lost in the second round. That's what average coaches do. (And I actually think Barnes is better than average)
 
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#80
#80
LittleCat said:
Duke had Tatum, Giles, Allen, Kennard, DeLaurier, Jones, Jackson, Bolden, Jefferson, etc. That's a massively loaded team. And what did Coach K get? A 2nd round exit. Evidently it's not as easy as recruiting massive classes and rolling the ball out.

Average coaching is going to the title game the Harrisons, WCS, Randle, and James Young starting? Or the Final Four with Harrellson, Jones, Knight, Liggins, and Miller? That's no 2012 or 2015 team at all.
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With all due to respect LC, I like you and you know I don't like Calipari but I agree with you on a lot of stuff about Cal. I just don't think he's that great of a coach. I do believe he's a mastermind of recruiting and getting players to the NBA. That's my opinion. I'm sure UK fans think I'm the stupidest person ever but I'm sure a lot of UT fans feel the same way about UK fans. Calipari has had a lot of good players in his career which is why I think he's won a good chunk of his games. He might be a good person outside of basketball but it's going to be hard for me to pull for him when college basketball starts. Either way, you're happy with Cal and I'm happy with Barnes. Let's just leave it at that.
 
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#81
#81
VolFreakJosh said:
With all due to respect LC, I like you and you know I don't like Calipari but I agree with you on a lot of stuff about Cal. I just don't think he's that great of a coach. I do believe he's a mastermind of recruiting and getting players to the NBA. That's my opinion. I'm sure UK fans think I'm the stupidest person ever but I'm sure a lot of UT fans feel the same way about UK fans. Calipari has had a lot of good players in his career which is why I think he's won a good chunk of his games. He might be a good person outside of basketball but it's going to be hard for me to pull for him when college basketball starts. Either way, you're happy with Cal and I'm happy with Barnes. Let's just leave it at that.
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I like you too Josh. I always enjoy these conversations. We don't always see eye to eye, and that's fine. You take it easy buddy.
 
#82
#82
LittleCat said:
Do the Bulls win titles without Jordan? No. Great logic. Somehow being a good recruiter is a mark against your ability as a coach now.
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Not at all. His actual coaching is his mark against his coaching. He's not an elite coach. Elite recruiter? Absolutley but he's not an elite coach. He's a very good coach, not too many are better, but there are better.
 
#83
#83
Yankee_Vol said:
Not at all. His actual coaching is his mark against his coaching. He's not an elite coach. Elite recruiter? Absolutley but he's not an elite coach. He's a very good coach, not too many are better, but there are better.
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#86
#86
NashVol11 said:
Guys like Bledsoe and even Cauley-Stein were far from guaranteed NBA players. Cal took a team starting Josh freaking Harrellson to the Final Four. This idea that he just rolls the ball out and never coaches is based on some ridiculous standard that he should win the title every single year
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Bledsoe was. He wasn't great at UK, but Wall was there. Bledsoe was an NBA player.

That same team with Cousins should have been better. Cal is great at motivating five stars to play as a team, but he has made some mistakes in big games and should have at least one more title.
 
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#87
#87
LittleCat said:
You sound bitter. Relax buddy.

He's sent plenty of kids to the league, which is their dream. Someone that's held against him and said to ruin the game. He's never had any kids involved in scandals (knock on wood) like some other big schools. Somehow Calipari and his players get painted as scum when it's the Lawsons yelling "F*** Tubby" heading to Kansas, or Grayson being a baby all year tripping opponents at Duke, UNC faking classes for 20 years, or UL hosting strippers in the dorms. Yet Cal is a criminal because one of his players took gifts and another had someone else take a test after he led those teams to unprecedented levels. Probably the closest thing to a scandal was Bledoe's high school grades being helped (which at my high school, was the norm for the best athletes).
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You need to research his years at Memphis better.

Sean Banks - 2 arrests before he showed up, flunked out because he didn't go to class, Cal played him until the chemistry was just wrecked.
Clyde Wade - acquitted of identity theft but laughably got robbed of $3600 in fake fur coats, $4000 in custom made shirts, $6000 in shoes!, $5000 in pants, $2000 in throw back jerseys
Jeremy Hunt - beat the crap out of his girl, broke his hand brawling on Beale, got 2 chances with Cal. His post Cal life continues on the same path.

Oh by the way, part of the "gifts" Camby took were prostitutes.

Never had any kids involved in scandals. Lololololololololololol
 
#88
#88
LittleCat said:
Duke had Tatum, Giles, Allen, Kennard, DeLaurier, Jones, Jackson, Bolden, Jefferson, etc. That's a massively loaded team. And what did Coach K get? A 2nd round exit. Evidently it's not as easy as recruiting massive classes and rolling the ball out.

Average coaching is going to the title game the Harrisons, WCS, Randle, and James Young starting? Or the Final Four with Harrellson, Jones, Knight, Liggins, and Miller? That's no 2012 or 2015 team at all.
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Coach K has 5 titles.
 
#89
#89
I watched the 30 for 30. What stuck out the most for me was all the other coaches most of them older coaches complaining about the one and done players. Which of course they are they want these guys to have to stay 4 years and play for free to make them millionaires instead of going to the NBA and getting their money. I like Cal a little more just for wanting his players to go.
 
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#91
#91
creekerballer said:
I watched the 30 for 30. What stuck out the most for me was all the other coaches most of them older coaches complaining about the one and done players. Which of course they are they want these guys to have to stay 4 years and play for free to make them millionaires instead of going to the NBA and getting their money. I like Cal a little more just for wanting his players to go.
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The old coaches are just upset because the recruiting landscape changed on them and it happens to benefit a guy who is a better recruiter than them. I don't hold that against Calipari. The hate for him stems purely from the fact than 1) his teams are good and he consistently recruits top talent and 2) he got 2 programs put on probation but he personally escaped any punishment.

This "he isn't an elite coach" business depends on what you define as "coaching." Recruiting is obviously part of running a program and being a head coach, and his recruiting abilities are unmatched. If by coaching you mean Xs and Os, drawing up plays, watching tape and getting guys prepared/ready to play, clock management, etc., I wouldn't say he's awful but there are coaches out there that are better at that than him. Both factors balance out to the point where you'd have to conclude he's one of the top 3 or 5 coaches in the game today.

It's a worn out analogy but Calipari is like the used car salesman who is great at getting you excited about the car and talking about the special features but if you popped the hood and asked him specific technical questions about the engine, he couldn't answer them as well as some of the other guys.
 
#92
#92
Even in terms of X's and O's, he's pretty good. You don't make the playoffs in the NBA by accident, especially when your best players are Keith Van Horn and Kerry Kittles. He might not be THE BEST, but neither is Coach K. That doesn't mean they're "average."
 
#93
#93
NashVol11 said:
Even in terms of X's and O's, he's pretty good. You don't make the playoffs in the NBA by accident, especially when your best players are Keith Van Horn and Kerry Kittles. He might not be THE BEST, but neither is Coach K. That doesn't mean they're "average."
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Who do you think is the best then? Pitino, Williams, Self? Am I missing someone?
 
#96
#96
NashVol11 said:
Probably Izzo, Pitino or Self. Definitely not Roy
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Roy was quoted once as saying that he recruits as hard as he does because he doesn't want to know what it is like to coach with average talent. He knows he isn't a great Xs and Os guy.
 
#97
#97
05_never_again said:
Roy was quoted once as saying that he recruits as hard as he does because he doesn't want to know what it is like to coach with average talent. He knows he isn't a great Xs and Os guy.
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He said that to Gary Parrish, I think. I actually really admire that
 
#99
#99
NashVol11 said:
Probably Izzo, Pitino or Self. Definitely not Roy
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Yea I agree. I think Pitino is vastly underrated. I do think he's the best X's & O's guy despite not being as good of a recruiter like Self, Cal, Williams, Coach K.
 
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#100
#100
VolFreakJosh said:
Yea I agree. I think Pitino is vastly underrated. I do think he's the best X's & O's guy despite not being as good of a recruiter like Self, Cal, Williams, Coach K.
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Agreed, Pitino is a scumbag but he's the first name that came to mind for me in terms of X's and O's.
 
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