Is the American Dream Dead?

#176
#176
utgibbs said:
Of course we do.

We allow a system of industrial agriculture which produces cheap cheese-doodles instead of cheap strawberries.

I think someone needs to reevaluate their ideas of personal responsibility.
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Walk me through producing cheap strawberries vs cheap cheese whatever? Maybe you'll even toss in some economics.
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#177
#177
utgibbs said:
Of course we do.

We allow a system of industrial agriculture which produces cheap cheese-doodles instead of cheap strawberries.

I think someone needs to reevaluate their ideas of personal responsibility.
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you're FOS and you know it, you're just too much of a hypocrite to admit it.

you have no possible way to prove that the "poor" are forced to buy unhealthy food. Your cheese doodles vs. strawberries comparison is asinine.
 
#178
#178
volinbham said:
you are speaking in abstract. "real value and quality vs cheap tat" are simply buzzwords in your presentation.

provide specifics - for example, how would we have affordable computers and Internet access without concentration of resources? as has been stated repeatedly you dismiss economies of scale with the waive of an epic facepalm.

you speak of conservation - concentration and centralization often preserves resources rather than endless duplication of effort.

your entire view of Health care rests on concentration and centralization and you've repeatedly argued that improves quality and efficiency.
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You are right. It can. Health care is exactly one example (although the market simply has no incentive to provide efficient health care and that is another problem).

It does not with agriculture which we were talking about. Smaller and more diversified is far, far more efficient.

In fact, capitalism REQUIRES decentralization on a far larger scale than we have in our monopoly capital regime. It would be EASY to provide computers for everyone. We simply design out planned obsolesence. A concrete example of Quality vs Cheap Tat if ever there was one.

But you are talking positively like a socialist with centralization and concentration! In fact, you have hit upon some realities of modern capitalism.
 
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#179
#179
utgibbs said:
It does not with agriculture which we were talking about. Smaller and more diversified is far, far more efficient.
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that might be true if one tool did the job. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way
 
#180
#180
if smaller and more diversified is more efficient for farms than why has production dramatically increased per acre while the average total size has dramatically increased?
 
#181
#181
BigPapaVol said:
Walk me through producing cheap strawberries vs cheap cheese whatever? Maybe you'll even toss in some economics.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Oh gosh. You don't want me to go into the history of Archers Daniel Midlands do you? Bagmen for Watergate?
 
#182
#182
utgibbs said:
It would be EASY to provide computers for everyone. We simply design out planned obsolesence. A concrete example of Quality vs Cheap Tat if ever there was one.
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Please explain.


Simply saying it is EASY is the most massive ignoring of the real world to date. You are selling bromides and slogans. Provide explanation - without industrialization, how would the VN have come into existence? Where would the affordable computers, message board software, affordable and widespread internet access (routers, servers, cables, telecomm) have come from? How much would these things cost and what % of the population could afford them without industrialization?
 
#183
#183
what kind of computers are we providing that aren't obsolete in a matter of months? I want one of those
 
#184
#184
it's easy, VBH, the government subsidizes such purchases. Gibbs is little more than a mouthpiece/apologist for the failed economic ideals of Marxism, communism, fascism and even Keynesian economics.
 
#185
#185
utgibbs said:
Oh gosh. You don't want me to go into the history of Archers Daniel Midlands do you? Bagmen for Watergate?
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I don't need AD. I told you tell about pricing strawberries vs cheese doodles.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#187
#187
droski said:
my bro is 300+ pounds and poor and complains that he can only afford fast food. i've tried to educate him that healthy food is at worst the same price, but i don't think he wants to learn.
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Probably cheaper. I've got a few kiddos, and an occasional trip even to McDonald's is really expensive compared to buying groceries.

Healthy food is a pain, though, comparatively. It takes a good deal more time to plan, buy, and prep a healthy meal.

And "know how," too. I would guess that most poor people who live on fast food don't really know HOW to prepare good food at home. Their parents didn't teach them, and they aren't teaching their kids either, and the neighbors don't do it, and the community doesn't do it.

What, as a society, should we do? I'd suggest that education might be a start, but it's hard to educate people who don't want to learn.

The first lady is right about one thing: healthy school lunches are a must. At least the kids who get free or subsidized lunch ought to have to eat something with a nutrient or two in it. They want crap, let them work and pay for crap. The free stuff should be veggies.
 
#188
#188
volinbham said:
Please explain.


Simply saying it is EASY is the most massive ignoring of the real world to date. You are selling bromides and slogans. Provide explanation - without industrialization, how would the VN have come into existence? Where would the affordable computers, message board software, affordable and widespread internet access (routers, servers, cables, telecomm) have come from? How much would these things cost and what % of the population could afford them without industrialization?
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I think you are struggling because you have already been repudiated by real world examples outside your backdoor:

1. Cuban experience
2. London food delivery (which, by the way, has a bustling street market culture still)
3. Cost of free range eggs compared to factory eggs already

I would say the only bromide is this insistence that de-industrialization requires a return to the Pleistocene, especially when I am VN's champion of Enlightenment gifts. It is the inertia of being locked in an ideology.

I find this deeply ironic though. What you are admitting above is, actually, Capitalism cannot and does not work. You are suggesting the decentralization of production - required for effective competitiveness - cannot be done in many circumstances. Maybe you have a point. And maybe that's why a mixed economy is far more efficient for production, jobs, etc.

Regarding how easy it would be to decrease production and increase computer access, another real world example:

Guiya E-waste Guangdong 4100 tons/day

Largest E-waste (electronic) landfill in the world. Thanks to the glory of planned obsolescence. :salute: I've got the numbers for everyone else too. I will admit, "easy" was too hyperbolic on my part. Just as "impossible" is hyperbolic on yours.

By the way, the internet is the invention of those evil Enlightenment guys in that evil government institution CERN. I'm not sure how the private sector didn't invent it first. Funny that.

I don't consider you one of the GoF, volinbham, and you are a good debater. So I won't bust the three letters of doom on you. :wink:
 
#189
#189
utgibbs said:
Regarding how easy it would be to decrease production and increase computer access, another real world example:

Guiya E-waste Guangdong 4100 tons/day

Largest E-waste (electronic) landfill in the world. Thanks to the glory of planned obsolescence.
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so you are for the end to advances in technology so everyone can get "access"? And access to what exactly? Are you saying that everyone deserves a computer now? That everyone deserves access to the internet?
 
#190
#190
StepCross said:
The first lady is right about one thing: healthy school lunches are a must. At least the kids who get free or subsidized lunch ought to have to eat something with a nutrient or two in it. They want crap, let them work and pay for crap. The free stuff should be veggies.
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Absolutely. I was reading an obesity study with over 300 citations directly calling out the corporatization of the school lunch room. Fortunately, hasn't happened in my area, but only at the price of eternal vigilance.

:good!:
 
#191
#191
utvolpj said:
so you are for the end to advances in technology so everyone can get "access"? And access to what exactly? Are you saying that everyone deserves a computer now? That everyone deserves access to the internet?
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Wasn't this Newt Gingrich legislation / idea? :) If so, it was among his best.

The computer is one of the most convivial gifts of the Enlightenment. If only we applied it with an aim of "de-industrialization".
 
#194
#194
doesn't that assume reason on your part?

anyway, so I'll just assume your answer is you are against tech advancement to improve access. So what exactly do you mean by "access"? To just the machines themselves (which is not necessarily that difficult) or to the internet?
 
#195
#195
utvolpj said:
doesn't that assume reason on your part?

anyway, so I'll just assume your answer is you are against tech advancement to improve access. So what exactly do you mean by "access"? To just the machines themselves (which is not necessarily that difficult) or to the internet?
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And thus you prove which one of us is using Reason.
 
#196
#196
been proven many times. What's your fear in answering a simple question? Why not explain your stance on this issue you've brought up a few different times?
 
#197
#197
utvolpj said:
been proven many times. What's your fear in answering a simple question? Why not explain your stance on this issue you've brought up a few different times?
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slumlords don't have to directly answer your questions
 
#199
#199
utvolpj said:
been proven many times. What's your fear in answering a simple question? Why not explain your stance on this issue you've brought up a few different times?
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On what issue? Whether I think everyone should have a computer? Whether everyone should have internet access? Both?

Well, again, I think it was first proposed by Newt Gingrich in some form or fashion. I would probably disagree with his initiatives, but the sentiment is excellent.

Everyone should have access. How to do it? It would require a feasability study to find the most efficient method, however, my inclination probably would lean towards library expansions with generous computer / networking access. Libraries, after all, are an enduring symbol of civilization. However, maybe "a laptop for every child" is today's rabbit in every pot....
 
#200
#200
answer both. You keep saying access without truly explaining how it's used

and who pays for this amazing worldwide access? It would take years and billions and billions of dollars to get the infrastructure close to what is needed. Not to mention the fact that the hardware would become outdated quickly because of advances. Are we to slow advances or upgrade systems accordingly?
 
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