Is the American Dream Dead?

#127
#127
no way they are different. the profile pick and moniker tells you all you need to know.
 
#128
#128
volinbham said:
I would modify that and say has a right to pursue a comfortable living. I would say embodied in the AD is the notion that if you work hard that this pursuit will payoff. However, I don't believe it is guaranteed (e.g. you have a right to a particular type of living).

It also depends on ownership/private property and Capitalism. (as embodied in the AD).
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utvolpj said:
man has the right to the opportunity. Beyond that there is no guarantee

the right is not disappearing it's that fewer choose to take advantage of it. Big difference
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This covers it.
 
#129
#129
utvolpj said:
yet you haven't explained how that's true
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The average American can't compete with machines, cheap labor from other countries or large corporations that control 90% of the country's wealth. Some undoubtedly can, but the working/middle lower class have less of a chance to earn a livable wage compared with earlier in our country's history. Once we reached the west coast and cheap land became scarcer, resources became much harder to come by. How can a small business owner compete with Wal Mart when it sells things cheap as dirt thanks to its exploited workforce (just 1 example). Many Americans represent that exploited workforce that slaves away for that worthless check, and many aren't as fortunate as you to be able to make a decent living. Some can, but it's far from being as easy as thought of in the AD.
 
#130
#130
Electric Orange said:
The average American can't compete with machines, cheap labor from other countries or large corporations that control 90% of the country's wealth.
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then learn a skill that's worth more than min wage or perhaps one machines can't do.

Electric Orange said:
Many Americans represent that exploited workforce that slaves away for that worthless check, and many aren't as fortunate as you to be able to make a decent living. Some can, but it's far from being as easy as thought of in the AD.
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fortunate? I worked hard and put in many hours to get where I am. The fact some are "slaves for a worthless check" speaks more about them than it does the AD. The fact is more are content with where they are in life and choose to stop. Says nothing of the opportunity and says the people are the ones to blame for killing the AD (as you see it).

Build a better mousetrap and you will have no issues. Try to sell tshirts or fake dog poop against Walmart and you'll get beat. That's not evil it's just the way it is. You have to differentiate yourself from your competitors to make a difference.
 
#131
#131
utvolpj said:
then learn a skill that's worth more than min wage or perhaps one machines can't do.



fortunate? I worked hard and put in many hours to get where I am. The fact some are "slaves for a worthless check" speaks more about them than it does the AD. The fact is more are content with where they are in life and choose to stop. Says nothing of the opportunity and says the people are the ones to blame for killing the AD (as you see it).

Build a better mousetrap and you will have no issues. Try to sell tshirts or fake dog poop against Walmart and you'll get beat. That's not evil it's just the way it is. You have to differentiate yourself from your competitors to make a difference.
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Like I said, we just have opposing viewpoints. You're old, I'm not. This is just my point of view. I don't claim to be intelligent, my comments show I'm not.
 
#132
#132
Electric Orange said:
Like I said, we just have opposing viewpoints. You're old, I'm not. This is just my point of view. I don't claim to be intelligent, my comments show I'm not.
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What in earth does age have to do with it? By the time I was 15, my dad had made very clear to me that my outcomes weren't guaranteed unless I sat on my ass, then they would be assured.
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#133
#133
Electric Orange said:
Like I said, we just have opposing viewpoints. You're old, I'm not. This is just my point of view. I don't claim to be intelligent, my comments show I'm not.
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I am not old just past the whimsical age of college years and have to work for a living. You're believing what others tell you about what you haven't experienced. It's ok since most have been there but the people in my ear said anything was possible. Seems the approach is different now

if you choose to go get it then the AD is still there. Some will succeed, some will try and fail and others just won't make the effort. They all had the opportunity though
 
#134
#134
utvolpj said:
then learn a skill that's worth more than min wage or perhaps one machines can't do.



fortunate? I worked hard and put in many hours to get where I am. The fact some are "slaves for a worthless check" speaks more about them than it does the AD. The fact is more are content with where they are in life and choose to stop. Says nothing of the opportunity and says the people are the ones to blame for killing the AD (as you see it).

Build a better mousetrap and you will have no issues. Try to sell tshirts or fake dog poop against Walmart and you'll get beat. That's not evil it's just the way it is. You have to differentiate yourself from your competitors to make a difference.
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AND I didn't say you didn't work hard. I'm sure you busted your ass. All I said was it is a slightly different work environment for up and coming workers than it was in the 90's. My varied job experience tells me this not "what people tell me."
 
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#136
#136
Electric Orange said:
AND I didn't say you didn't work hard. I'm sure you busted your ass. All I said was it is a slightly different work environment for up and coming workers than it was in the 90's. My varied job experience tells me this not "what people tell me."
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I didn't enter the workforce until 2000. There are still jobs out there for young people who haven't wasted their time

and what "varied job experience" do you have?
 
#137
#137
BigPapaVol said:
How?
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Well for one thing, the dot com bubble hadn't burst and the housing market hadn't collapsed. Jobs in construction were plentiful. I know because I had one. Try finding work building houses now. Betcha can't.
 
#138
#138
Electric Orange said:
Well for one thing, the dot com bubble hadn't burst and the housing market hadn't collapsed. Jobs in construction were plentiful. I know because I had one. Try finding work building houses now. Betcha can't.
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I don't need to build houses.

If you're saying this is the only recession over our history, you'd be wrong.
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#139
#139
Electric Orange said:
Well for one thing, the dot com bubble hadn't burst and the housing market hadn't collapsed. Jobs in construction were plentiful. I know because I had one. Try finding work building houses now. Betcha can't.
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how many of the houses that you helped build are in foreclosure or are empty?

bubbles have to burst and the market has to be able to correct itself.

instead of feeling sorry for yourself and your inability to find a job swinging a hammer in your current location, why don't you go to where the jobs are?
 
#140
#140
MG1968 said:
how many of the houses that you helped build are in foreclosure or are empty?

bubbles have to burst and the market has to be able to correct itself.

instead of feeling sorry for yourself and your inability to find a job swinging a hammer in your current location, why don't you go to where the jobs are?
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Easier to say it's hard and call the problem a systemic one. It's what Lenin would do.
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#142
#142
utvolpj said:
I didn't enter the workforce until 2000. There are still jobs out there for young people who haven't wasted their time

and what "varied job experience" do you have?
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Glad you asked. I'm in college now fwiw. My first job was as a gas station clerk. I enjoyed that job because half the gas station was a bait and tackle shop. Good times. I even enjoyed getting robbed more than my next jobs. Next I worked a few different construction jobs. They weren't so bad and the pay was great while the housing market was booming. Next I worked at a Shane's Rib Shack. Never eat there that place sucks dik. After that I mowed grass/ did various yard stuff for people/companies. After that I was a pool technician (I cleaned/installed swiming pools). Again f that job. I currently work at a Quik Trip. None of these jobs are that special or specialized if you will, but without going to college to earn a degree, I'd never be able to support myself (even with one, the prospects are depressing). I know for a fact that in the past it was slightly if only a little bit easier. I've spoke my peace and I'm done arguing, so go ahead and tell me I'm wrong because after all, the only thing I really know is that I know nothing at all.
 
#144
#144
Electric Orange said:
Glad you asked. I'm in college now fwiw. My first job was as a gas station clerk. I enjoyed that job because half the gas station was a bait and tackle shop. Good times. I even enjoyed getting robbed more than my next jobs. Next I worked a few different construction jobs. They weren't so bad and the pay was great while the housing market was booming. Next I worked at a Shane's Rib Shack. Never eat there that place sucks dik. After that I mowed grass/ did various yard stuff for people/companies. After that I was a pool technician (I cleaned/installed swiming pools). Again f that job. I currently work at a Quik Trip. None of these jobs are that special or specialized if you will, but without going to college to earn a degree, I'd never be able to support myself (even with one, the prospects are depressing). I know for a fact that in the past it was slightly if only a little bit easier. I've spoke my peace and I'm done arguing, so go ahead and tell me I'm wrong because after all, the only thing I really know is that I know nothing at all.
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I kind of addressed that earlier

utvolpj said:
You have to differentiate yourself from your competitors to make a difference.
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and the prospects aren't depressing. My company is hiring lots of college grads (like how I started) but the work isn't fun and you won't start out at $100k. Just don't waste your time in college getting a psych or marketing degree or else you'll be competing with a huge pool. Get something specialized or you're probably wasting your time.

none of those jobs take a skill. I did lots of odd jobs in college (baked bagels, waited tables, sold boat parts) but knew none were going to get me where I wanted to be. Anyone can wait tables but very few people in my company can do what I currently do. I found a niche and wedged myself into it. I'm good for right now but will be looking for more in the future.
 
#145
#145
I just graduated with a Master's in Engineering. There's no jobs out there for anyone graduating right now unless you know someone from a company that's hiring. I knew a few people, it worked out. But even if you know people, companies aren't making jobs even if you are a good potential employee. There's no other way to sugar coat it. This is the worst time to be a recent graduate, even compared to a few years earlier. It also doesn't help that recent graduates are having to compete with lots of people who are jobless and have a few years of experience. And Internships don't help if the company you interned with isn't hiring when you do graduate.

Oh well....I told myself, I'd rather take the hard times now as oppose to the future when I have hard responsibilities. Right now, I have none.
 
#146
#146
BigPapaVol said:
Are you retarded?
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I'm beginning to wonder about you, I'm afraid.

Are you really suggesting these cycles are not systemic?


@Electric Orange: I agree with you. Timing does mean a great deal. I have done well as a rentier simply because I happened to be in the right place at the right time. I often think, daymn, someone a lot more talented than me could not pull off what I did simply because the conditions aren't right any more. And then my first business never got off the ground because we hit a recession right when I needed financing. Timing matters.

Will they be right again? It's definitely hard to say; it really is. This whole thing could go to smash in an instant, or it may stumble along for another generation. I honestly :dunno:

And it's these, among other considerations, that help shape my world view.
 
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#148
#148
MG1968 said:
ah, so deep down you really are a capitalist at heart.
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My worldview is partially shaped by my success, and the full knowledge it wasn't strictly down to talent.

Have I ever said anything against private property? Ever?

You seem to think because I realize taxes are important and should be progressive, and providing opportunity because it's not all about talent that I'm Borg. There should be Commons, absolutely. The government can own property. Absolutely. People can own stuff. Absolutely. Doesn't mean I think "freedom" is having plenty of cheap tat to buy.

(By the way, it would cut my insurance bill in half to relocate to Canada. Which is why Detroit moved to Ontario.)
 
#150
#150
utgibbs said:
I'm beginning to wonder about you, I'm afraid.

Are you really suggesting these cycles are not systemic?

.
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Where in the world did you get this stupid question or the idea that I hinted at such? Are you just making crap up so you can give us another spiel about obscure reading and idiotic socialist drivel.
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