Is the Neocon vision coming to fruition?

#79
#79
I was hoping someone would ask the question. High marks to Rasp for being bold and raising his hand.
 
#80
#80
I'd give him high marks for probably being the only one to read that stuff anymore
 
#81
#81
utgibbs said:
I was hoping someone would ask the question. High marks to Rasp for being bold and raising his hand.
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receiving a gold star from you is about the same as getting a case of the clap from Roseanne Barr.
 
#82
#82
utvolpj said:
I'd give him high marks for probably being the only one to read that stuff anymore
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Yes, especially after the brainlessness about our presence there being about precluding popular uprisings.
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#83
#83
utvolpj said:
I'd give him high marks for probably being the only one to read that stuff anymore
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Got to hand it to the man for not bottling it.

The CFAs bottled it when they got pulled into pimping Keynes, big time. Folks might need a Cobra Commander mask to show up on this side of the Forums before too long.... ;)
 
#86
#86
utgibbs said:
Got to hand it to the man for not bottling it.

The CFAs bottled it when they got pulled into pimping Keynes, big time. Folks might need a Cobra Commander mask to show up on this side of the Forums before too long.... ;)
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laughing.gif
 
#87
#87
BigPapaVol said:
Yes, especially after the brainlessness about our presence there being about precluding popular uprisings.
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BPV, after big-pimping Keynes in the other thread, in your own backyard, I can guarantee you want no part of me on Iraq / Middle East.

You might want to consider the irony of which of the dominos are falling, btw.
 
#88
#88
Vol423 said:
Really? What happened to WMD's?
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???

Just saying the neocon strategy was to force democracy onto the ME in a few places and let it spread.

WMD was one small part.

Also, I'm not promoting the neocon strategy just wondering if they were in part correct about what would happen. I am not a neocon nor neocon supporter.
 
#89
#89
volinbham said:
???

Just saying the neocon strategy was to force democracy onto the ME in a few places and let it spread.

WMD was one small part.

Also, I'm not promoting the neocon strategy just wondering if they were in part correct about what would happen. I am not a neocon nor neocon supporter.
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Again, I'm not sure y'all understand the grand irony of what is happening. The "domino" which fell has been the staunchest US Arab ally over the last forty years. In the country we could have done the most in to assure fair and free elections, we have held out against the popular movement (a movement which is far from revolutionary, one which is basically asking for term limits akin to our own on the Presidency) until the bitter end, choosing our Man In Cairo, and certainly attempting to effect a transition to Mubarak Two Electric Boogaloo even now.

Bahrain could easily be the US number two in the region.

And, of course, the litmus test would be our response to a popular uprising in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. That will put into clear and unambiguous context what the Washington Concensus views on democracy really are.

Again, this notion of "democracy" (sic) has to be looked at through the historical lens. I'm not sure a trite about-face by the neocons to salvage the shambles of their WMD fabrications (and this is what actually happened) wanting to "spread democracy" has any substance when analyzed with any honesty or rigor.
 
#90
#90
utgibbs said:
BPV, after big-pimping Keynes in the other thread, in your own backyard, I can guarantee you want no part of me on Iraq / Middle East.

You might want to consider the irony of which of the dominos are falling, btw.
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I'm sure your genius would overwhelm. I'm surprised I can still type with your economic genius.

By the way, I'm not a CFA and am never going to be.
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#91
#91
BigPapaVol said:
I'm sure your genius would overwhelm. I'm surprised I can still type with your economic genius.

By the way, I'm not a CFA and am never going to be.
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Had no intent of besmirching your character with the CFA brush, BPV. :thumbsup:
 
#93
#93
I don't think there was a single catalyst. These protest have been brewing for a long time and was bound too happen sooner or later, no matter American agendas being pursued in the ME. Egypt reached a tipping point and it boiled over. Egypt may be a "catalyst" for the rest of the ME, but no one thing set them off. It just reached critical mass.
 
#95
#95
volinbham said:
???

Just saying the neocon strategy was to force democracy onto the ME in a few places and let it spread.

WMD was one small part.

Also, I'm not promoting the neocon strategy just wondering if they were in part correct about what would happen. I am not a neocon nor neocon supporter.
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I'm a sheep like most conservatives on some of the issues re: the war in Iraq, but that was not just a small part. I would say it was:

1. Saddam harboring terrorists 35%
2. His ability to threaten our interests in the region (Israel) and other civilians (Kurds) with chemical/biological weapons (and possibly trying to acquire nukes) 35%
3. Having better control of oil production (to stabilize global/US economy) 20%
4. The need to establish a democracy in the region 10%

If they would have followed my grand scheme, we would have assassinated Saddam, left a power vacuum, and let Iraq's neighbors and those inside the country fight in a battle royale to decide what country or entity will take control. While all of these other countries are occupied with Iraq, their domestic issues would have taken a back burner and you probably would have had Egypt, Yemen and Bahrain happening in 2006 instead of 2011.


I'm just saying...
 
#96
#96
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm a sheep like most conservatives on some of the issues re: the war in Iraq, but that was not just a small part. I would say it was:

1. Saddam harboring terrorists 0%
2. His intent not to stabilize the region in our interests 50%
3. Having better control of oil production (to stabilize global/US economy) 50%
4. The need to establish a democracy in the region 0%

If they would have followed my grand scheme, we would have assassinated Saddam, left a power vacuum, and let Iraq's neighbors and those inside the country fight in a battle royale to decide what country or entity will take control. While all of these other countries are occupied with Iraq, their domestic issues would have taken a back burner and you probably would have had Egypt, Yemen and Bahrain happening in 2006 instead of 2011.


I'm just saying...
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FYP. Actually, your figures weren't too far wrong.

I'm not sure what to say about your "grand scheme" though. It would have guaranteed Iranian hegemony in the region.
 
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#97
#97
haven't read the entire thread, but massive food inflation and sky high unemployment caused this situation. hard to imagine a democracy coming out of this. if anything the egyptian people blame us for their problems.
 
#98
#98
MG1968 said:
I have little faith these countries in the ME, North Africa, and Iran will advance to anything resembling a democracy. I think they will pay it lip-service and say it's democracy, but in the end, it's going to be anti-western Islamic fascism that wins out. College kids here in America can't stand Israel, so why should it be expected Iranian college kids be pro-Israel?

Not trying to sound conspiratorial, but I just don't see a better world coming out of what's going on right now.
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How is a pro-Israeli stance a prerequisite for a democratic form of government?
 
#99
#99
milohimself said:
Problem is, as I mentioned, the leaderless nature of these revolts. What gets put in the place of these other governments might fall within some parameters, but it's likely going to be a case of who cares enough to go in and put something together for them.
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It's a little arrogant to assume that they can't form a government without someone going in to "put something together for them."
 
#100
#100
Vol423 said:
It's a little arrogant to assume that they can't form a government without someone going in to "put something together for them."
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Agree, however, milo has a very important point, and I can't help going back to Angola.

When it was long clear that neither Holden Roberto or Jonas Savimbi had any support of infrastructure to actually form a working government, the US still threw support behind FNLA and UNITA. Meanwhile, MPLA had been running the country since before the Portuguese had left, very effectively too (certainly Cuban experts helped here as well), where they weren't undermined by South Africa and the US-backed terrorist organizations and mercenaries.

The Egyptian uprising is hardly a Revolutionary movement, IMHO. However, if they move quickly and consolidate what they have won, it is, as you say, possible they can quickly establish a brand new government.

My reading of the situation though is this is a response to the legacy of Mubarak and they have been asking for cosmetic changes. As a mass popular movement - historic. As a revolutionary movement - well, watch this space to be sure, but I don't see it.
 
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