Is the Neocon vision coming to fruition?

#101
#101
Vol423 said:
It's a little arrogant to assume that they can't form a government without someone going in to "put something together for them."
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if they haven't figured it out in 4,000 years why think they are going to figure it out soon?
 
#102
#102
droski said:
if they haven't figured it out in 4,000 years why think they are going to figure it out soon?
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It's not our job to figure it out for them. It's their country. They should figure it out themselves. Perhaps part of the reason that so many countries around the world hate us so badly is that we praise the virtues of freedom and democracy when applied to us. However, fear leads us to financially and militarily backing oppressive governments around the world.
 
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#103
#103
they hate us because we are the big dog and it's in the best interest of their politicians to blame the big dog for all their problems. i agree leave them alone since they don't appreciate anything we do for them anyway.
 
#104
#104
droski said:
they hate us because we are the big dog and it's in the best interest of their politicians to blame the big dog for all their problems. i agree leave them alone since they don't appreciate anything we do for them anyway.
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Vol423 is right, and you, I'm afraid, are wrong, drosk.

I've already dismissed this notion of "American largesse." We simply do not give the kind of foreign aid you think we do (military arms sales excepted, of course) - neither as a government nor as private citizens.

Second, the rest of the world knows our policies far better than the average American. Had we supported the youth movement in MSR, US Flags would have been flying up and down the Nile. But every Egyptian knows we have propped up Mubarak and prevented elections for three decades.

Do I need to bring up Angola again in this thread????
 
#107
#107
droski said:
are you really arguing we haven't given significant foreign aid to egypt?
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Uh, this is a new tack for you - being completely ridiculous. Big-pimping Keynes must have taken the fight out of you.

I said plainly they were #2 on our foreign "aid" list. This was "aid" to keep Mubarak in power.
 
#110
#110
utgibbs said:
Uh, this is a new tack for you - being completely ridiculous. Big-pimping Keynes must have taken the fight out of you.

I said plainly they were #2 on our foreign "aid" list. This was "aid" to keep Mubarak in power.
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so your sugestion is what? we give more money to the next dictator?
 
#111
#111
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm a sheep like most conservatives on some of the issues re: the war in Iraq, but that was not just a small part. I would say it was:

1. Saddam harboring terrorists 35%
2. His ability to threaten our interests in the region (Israel) and other civilians (Kurds) with chemical/biological weapons (and possibly trying to acquire nukes) 35%
3. Having better control of oil production (to stabilize global/US economy) 20%
4. The need to establish a democracy in the region 10%

If they would have followed my grand scheme, we would have assassinated Saddam, left a power vacuum, and let Iraq's neighbors and those inside the country fight in a battle royale to decide what country or entity will take control. While all of these other countries are occupied with Iraq, their domestic issues would have taken a back burner and you probably would have had Egypt, Yemen and Bahrain happening in 2006 instead of 2011.


I'm just saying...
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I wasn't referring to why we went to Iraq, I was referring to the neocon philosophy that helped push the decision. For that part of the strategy the WMD wasn't the reason, they were the opening. The Neocon strategy was all about ME transformation and the belief in WMD provided the cover to persuade enough people to go along.

As for your overall assessment of why we went I agree.

Hope that distinction makes sense.
 
#113
#113
droski said:
so your sugestion is what? we give more money to the next dictator?
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You seemed to be under the mistaken impression that US government and private citizens give all kinds of money around the world.

That is simply not the case. In fact, as we proved in another thread, we are among the stingiest.

However, Mubarak received a great deal of US largesse.

Personally, I would like to see us STOP giving aid full stop. If we want to help, it should go through the United Nations which is far more efficient and better at delivering aid.

Our "aid" ends up in the hands of Mubarak, Saddam Hussein, the Taliban, Jonas Savimbi, Apartheid South Africa, Pinochet, and the list goes on and on and on. For goodness sakes, in the grandest irony of the Cold War we had Cuban troops protecting US Gulf Oil in Cabinda from the US backed and witch burner Jonas Savimbi and the racist South African army!!!!!!!! To say nothing of the Taliban!

We aren't good at the "aid" game. We should turn over our foreign aid budget to the UN. It's not a lot of money, as we have demonstrated, and they would use it far more effectively.
 
#114
#114
yes throw more money at the UN. jesus you are lost. is there anything in your opinion that our euro brothers don't do better than us?
 
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