Is the world better off with the nation of Israel?

#528
#528
Orangedogsrule said:
No one knows what Israel does or does not have as a nuclear arsenal. If, in fact, any at all.
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If this were Iran or any other country on our hit list, we would be bleating about sending in UN inspectors and WMDs and what not...

Orangedogsrule said:
You folk are doing exactly what so many accused Bush of doing over Saddam Hussein and weapons of mass destruction.
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Difference is that we actually attacked Iraq based on those assertions. Israel is safe in that regard.

Orangedogsrule said:
Why are you so anti-Jew, anti-Israel to the point it being antisemitic racism?
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I'm equally critical of the Saudis, if not more so, but I've never been accused of being anti-Semitic in those instances.

Orangedogsrule said:
Likewise, your apologetic stance towards Iran in your post is mind boggling.
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Iran has its fair share of flaws just like any other country. But the hype and propaganda is reckless and irresponsible. Meanwhile, we allow the Saudis to get a pass. Oops, there's that anti-Semitism popping up again...

Orangedogsrule said:
One begins to wonder if you have America's best interests at heart.
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America's best interests would be best served if we get out of that region and all of these other far flung areas and take care of our own business in this hemisphere, not butting our nose in a 3-4 millennium long battle over a few square miles of desert halfway around the world.
 
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#529
#529
If we were to stay true to our principles of self-determination, individualism, and taxation with representation, then we have fallen on the wrong side of history.
 
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#530
#530
Rasputin_Vol said:
If this were Iran or any other country on our hit list, we would be bleating about sending in UN inspectors and WMDs and what not...
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Real questions. Since the UN has a large regional Muslim faction, I would think they would be the ones, using your isolationist logic, to demand inspections. But, since Israel is not a signatory of the UN nuclear treatys one wonders under what authority anyone could demand that from a soverign nation.

Difference is that we actually attacked Iraq based on those assertions. Israel is safe in that regard.
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Firstly, investigative sources of several nations in the coalition leading up to the Gulf War believed Saddam was further along in acquiring nuclear material for the bomb he was developing than many think he was. And indeed, he was developing a nuclear bomb. The head of his nuclear enrichment development program was Dr. Mahdi Obeidi who wrote the book The Bomb in My Garden.

From the CIA Library review of Obeidi's book.

Access Denied

..."Obeidi’s account concentrates, first, on his role prior to 1991 in acquiring the means to produce the highly enriched uranium necessary to build an atomic bomb and, second, on whether Iraq had a nuclear capability after 9/11. In the telling, he gives a detailed, balanced view of events.

The book’s title is both metaphorical and factual. Had the secret cache (buried at his home in his garden) been discovered by Saddam’s security elements, Obeidi and his family might have been eliminated. On the other hand, there was a real bomb in his garden, and he tells that story in the first chapter."...

Israel has a right to exist where they do. Belligerant aggressor nations (the revelant one here was The Ottoman Empire) were conquered in WWI. A part of the British Mandate of the conquered land was legally apportioned by Britian as a Jewish homeland. The non desert/swamp/wasteland portion of Israel were legally bought and paid for. Israel is not a danger to the region unless they are attacked or have a high degree of reliable evidence they are about to be.

I'm equally critical of the Saudis, if not more so, but I've never been accused of being anti-Semitic in those instances.
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Fair point. I do not recall you ever making your position on the Saudis as strident as you do in regard to Israel. That does not mean you haven't though.

Iran has its fair share of flaws just like any other country. But the hype and propaganda is reckless and irresponsible. Meanwhile, we allow the Saudis to get a pass. Oops, there's that anti-Semitism popping up again...
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Iran supplying the Houthi rebels a missle fired into a Saudi airport is a bit more than "a share of flaws".

I'm not certain the Sauds have nuclear weapons in country. I do believe they have arrangements with Pakistan to provide technology, materials, and even working weapons if need be.

America's best interests would be best served if we get out of that region and all of these other far flung areas and take care of our own business in this hemisphere, not butting our nose in a 3-4 millennium long battle over a few square miles of desert halfway around the world.
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I disagree with hemispherical protectionism. The world just keeps getting smaller.
 
#531
#531
Orangedogsrule said:
Real questions. Since the UN has a large regional Muslim faction, I would think they would be the ones, using your isolationist logic, to demand inspections. But, since Israel is not a signatory of the UN nuclear treatys one wonders under what authority anyone could demand that from a soverign nation.
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Where are you getting this isolationist nonsense? I believe in trade and commerce with all, alliances with none.


Orangedogsrule said:
Firstly, investigative sources of several nations in the coalition leading up to the Gulf War believed Saddam was further along in acquiring nuclear material for the bomb he was developing than many think he was. And indeed, he was developing a nuclear bomb. The head of his nuclear enrichment development program was Dr. Mahdi Obeidi who wrote the book The Bomb in My Garden.
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So what if he had a bomb or was working on one?


Orangedogsrule said:
Israel has a right to exist where they do.
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Agreed.

Orangedogsrule said:
Belligerant aggressor nations (the revelant one here was The Ottoman Empire) were conquered in WWI. A part of the British Mandate of the conquered land was legally apportioned by Britian as a Jewish homeland. The non desert/swamp/wasteland portion of Israel were legally bought and paid for.
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That Sykes-Picot agreement is the very source of our problems today in the Middle East. The last remnants of European colonialism in the 20th Century. Those people in that region should have been left to self-determination, not colonized and partitioned based on how the French and British were able to split the spoils of war. Young men in this hemisphere are dying over there right now over the control of resources in that region.

Orangedogsrule said:
Israel is not a danger to the region unless they are attacked or have a high degree of reliable evidence they are about to be.
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You do realize that you have an influential group of Israelis that believe in the Greater Israel project? If you are a neighbor of Israel, you have every reason to be concerned.

Orangedogsrule said:
Fair point. I do not recall you ever making your position on the Saudis as strident as you do in regard to Israel. That does not mean you haven't though.
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Rightwingers and neo-cons throw around the term "anti-Semite" as much as liberals throw around the word "racist". Two sides of the same coin. Whenever you are on the wrong side of an argument, throw out a personal attack.

Orangedogsrule said:
Iran supplying the Houthi rebels a missle fired into a Saudi airport is a bit more than "a share of flaws".
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Saudi Arabia started this war with Yemen... you do realize that, right?

Orangedogsrule said:
I'm not certain the Sauds have nuclear weapons in country. I do believe they have arrangements with Pakistan to provide technology, materials, and even working weapons if need be.
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Why the Pakistanis? The United States could very well give the Saudis a few nukes.

Orangedogsrule said:
I disagree with hemispherical protectionism. The world just keeps getting smaller.
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Even in the Jet Age, this country's best defense are the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans. This country was blessed with resources and was based on empowering the individual, even as flawed as the US can be at times. Why in the world do we need to bog ourselves down in the affairs of Europeans and Middle Easterners or SE Asians when we can mind our own damn business right here, engage in trade, commerce, peaceful technology innovations and at least re-establish some image of being a beacon for individual liberty and prosperity? Instead, we waste our blood and treasure in the sands halfway around the globe and use our best and brightest minds to build bombs and infringe on our Constitutionally protected rights here on the mainland.
 
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#533
#533
Rasputin_Vol said:
Where are you getting this isolationist nonsense? I believe in trade and commerce with all, alliances with none.
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From the Encyclopedia Britannica

Isolationism, National policy of avoiding political or economic entanglements with other countries. Isolationism has been a recurrent theme in U.S. history.

Note the use of the word 'or' instead of 'and' So you are isolationist...politically.

But there can be no economic 'entanglement' without political agreements between countries. That's the way of the world. If you think otherwise, well...


So what if he had a bomb or was working on one?
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Building Saddam Hussein's Bomb - The New York Times

He was about 18 mo. from having worked their way through five interations of their design, cutting the size and weight down from 1 ton to half a ton warhead that was ballistically deliverable.

Why?



Why Did Saddam Want the Bomb? The Israel Factor and the Iraqi Nuclear Program - Foreign Policy Research Institute

..."On March 27, 1979, Saddam Hussein, the de facto ruler and soon-to-be president of Iraq, laid out his vision for a long, grinding war against Israel in a private meeting of high-level Baathist officials. Iraq, he explained, would seek to obtain a nuclear weapon from “our Soviet friends,” use the resulting deterrent power to counteract Israeli threats of nuclear retaliation, and thereby enable a “patient war”—a war of attrition—that would reclaim Arab lands lost in the Six Day War of 1967. As Saddam put it, nuclear weapons would allow Iraq to “guarantee the long war that is destructive to our enemy, and take at our leisure each meter of land and drown the enemy with rivers of blood.”... [1]

In light of Saddam Hussein's words above, I can only say I take your political isolationism, which is what you expound, as cowardice.

Agreed.
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That Sykes-Picot agreement is the very source of our problems today in the Middle East. The last remnants of European colonialism in the 20th Century. Those people in that region should have been left to self-determination, not colonized and partitioned based on how the French and British were able to split the spoils of war. Young men in this hemisphere are dying over there right now over the control of resources in that region.
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You agree Israel has a right to exist. But, without Sykes-Picot and the British Mandate, this could not have happened.

We're opposite on what to do with belligerant nations who start wars. One of the great errors of WWI was that France and England did not occupy Germany. Wilson's demand for total surrender should have included occupation as well.


You do realize that you have an influential group of Israelis that believe in the Greater Israel project? If you are a neighbor of Israel, you have every reason to be concerned.
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And a greater number believe the Greater Israel Project believers are easily sucked in to conspiracy theories. Where is PROOF it really exists apart from a circle of websites all referencing each other?

Rightwingers and neo-cons throw around the term "anti-Semite" as much as liberals throw around the word "racist". Two sides of the same coin. Whenever you are on the wrong side of an argument, throw out a personal attack.
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If you arent anti-semite, you do appear anti-Israel. (not talking about the above conspiracy theory, but anti-Israel in general.


Saudi Arabia started this war with Yemen... you do realize that, right?
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I'll take your tack...So what?
Why is the Houthi missile aggression one the US should ignore?


Why the Pakistanis? The United States could very well give the Saudis a few nukes.
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It's reported the Sauds have already paid Pakistan.


Even in the Jet Age, this country's best defense are the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans.
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True for the most part. Advanced countries can attack coastal cities and plains at will.

This country was blessed with resources and was based on empowering the individual, even as flawed as the US can be at times. Why in the world do we need to bog ourselves down in the affairs of Europeans and Middle Easterners or SE Asians when we can mind our own damn business right here, engage in trade, commerce, peaceful technology innovations and at least re-establish some image of being a beacon for individual liberty and prosperity?
Click to expand...

If we and allies didn't stand strong, the world would be in chaos.

Instead, we waste our blood and treasure in the sands halfway around the globe and use our best and brightest minds to build bombs and infringe on our Constitutionally protected rights here on the mainland.
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I don't think we'll ever be able to disentangle ourselves from Eastern Hemisphere politics and survive as a nation.

But I suspect that wouldn't bother you.
 
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#548
#548
hog88 said:
When did you post facts? I wanna see.
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And, here are some first hand facts...you won't find unless digging out of the "controlled" MSM...

The most detailed description of Jewish influence in the Bolshevik ‘revolution comes from Robert Wilton, the Russian correspondent of The Times. In 1920 he published a book in French, Les Derniers Jours des Romanofs, which gave the racial background of all the members of the Soviet government. (This does not appear in the later English translation, for some odd reason.) After the publication of this monumental work, Wilton was ostracised by the press, and he died in poverty in 1925. He reported that the Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party was made up as follows:


NAME NATIONALITY
Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Lourie (Larine) Jew
Ouritski Jew
Volodarski Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamanef) Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Sverdlof (Yankel) Jew
Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Krylenko Russian
Lounatcharski Russian



“The Council of the People’s Commissars comprises the following:

MINISTRY NAME NATIONALITY
President Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Foreign Affairs Tchitcherine Russian
Nationalities Djugashvili (Stalin) Georgian
Agriculture Protian Armenian
Economic Council Lourie (Larine) Jew
Food Schlichter Jew
Army & Navy Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
State Control Lander Jew
State Lands Kauffman Jew
Works V. Schmidt Jew
Social Relief E. Lelina (Knigissen) Jewess
Public Instruction Lounatcharsky Russian
Religions Spitzberg Jew
Interior Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Hygiene Anvelt Jew
Finance Isidore Goukovski Jew
Press Volodarski Jew
Elections Ouritski Jew
Justice I. Steinberg Jew
Refugees Fenigstein Jew
Refugees (assist.) Savitch Jew
Refugees (assist.) Zaslovski Jew



“The following is the list of members of the Central Executive Committee:

NAME NATIONALITY
Sverdlov (president) Jew
Avanessof (sec.) Armenian
Bruno Lett
Babtchinski Jew
Bukharin Russian
Weinberg Jew
Gailiss Jew
Ganzburg Jew
Danichevski Jew
Starck German
Sachs Jew
Scheinmann Jew
Erdling Jew
Landauer Jew
Linder Jew
Wolach Czech
Dimanstein Jew
Encukidze Georgian
Ermann Jew
Joffe Jew
Karkline Jew
Knigissen Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamenef) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Krylenko Russian
KrassikofSachs Jew
Kaprik Jew
Kaoul Lett
Ulyanov (lenin) Russian
Latsis Jew
Lander Jew
Lounatcharski Russian
Peterson Lett
Peters Lett
Roudzoutas Jew
Rosine Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Stoutchka Lett
Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
Sosnovski Jew
Skrytnik Jew
Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Teodorovitch Jew
Terian Armenian
Ouritski Jew
Telechkine Russian
Feldmann Jew
Froumkine Jew
Souriupa Ukranian
Tchavtchevadze Georgian
Scheikmann Jew
Rosental Jew
Achkinazi Imeretian
Karakhane Karaim (Jew)
Rose Jew
Sobelson (Radek) Jew
Sclichter Jew
Schikolini Jew
Chklianski Jew
Levine (Pravdine) Jew



“The following is the list of members of the Extraordinary Commission of Moscow:

NAME NATIONALITY
Dzerjinski (president) Pole
Peters (vice-president) Lett
Chklovski Jew
Kheifiss Jew
Zeistine Jew
Razmirovitch Jew
Kronberg Jew
Khaikina Jewess
Karlson Lett
Schaumann Jew
Leontovitch Jew
Jacob Goldine Jew
Glaperstein Jew
Kniggisen Jew
Latzis Lett
Schillenkuss Jew
Janson Lett
Rivkine Jew
Antonof Russian
Delafabre Jew
Tsitkine Jew
Roskirovitch Jew
G. Sverdlof Jew
Biesenski Jew
Blioumkine Jew
Alexandrevitch Russian
I. Model Jew
Routenberg Jew
Pines Jew
Sachs Jew
Daybol Lett
Saissoune Armenian
Deylkenen Lett
Liebert Jew
Vogel German
Zakiss Lett

Jews and Bolshevism: Names and Lists. The Council of the People’s Commissars
 
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#550
#550
Pacer92 said:
And, here are some first hand facts...you won't find unless digging out of the "controlled" MSM...

The most detailed description of Jewish influence in the Bolshevik ‘revolution comes from Robert Wilton, the Russian correspondent of The Times. In 1920 he published a book in French, Les Derniers Jours des Romanofs, which gave the racial background of all the members of the Soviet government. (This does not appear in the later English translation, for some odd reason.) After the publication of this monumental work, Wilton was ostracised by the press, and he died in poverty in 1925. He reported that the Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party was made up as follows:


NAME NATIONALITY
Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Lourie (Larine) Jew
Ouritski Jew
Volodarski Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamanef) Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Sverdlof (Yankel) Jew
Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Krylenko Russian
Lounatcharski Russian



“The Council of the People’s Commissars comprises the following:

MINISTRY NAME NATIONALITY
President Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Foreign Affairs Tchitcherine Russian
Nationalities Djugashvili (Stalin) Georgian
Agriculture Protian Armenian
Economic Council Lourie (Larine) Jew
Food Schlichter Jew
Army & Navy Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
State Control Lander Jew
State Lands Kauffman Jew
Works V. Schmidt Jew
Social Relief E. Lelina (Knigissen) Jewess
Public Instruction Lounatcharsky Russian
Religions Spitzberg Jew
Interior Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Hygiene Anvelt Jew
Finance Isidore Goukovski Jew
Press Volodarski Jew
Elections Ouritski Jew
Justice I. Steinberg Jew
Refugees Fenigstein Jew
Refugees (assist.) Savitch Jew
Refugees (assist.) Zaslovski Jew



“The following is the list of members of the Central Executive Committee:

NAME NATIONALITY
Sverdlov (president) Jew
Avanessof (sec.) Armenian
Bruno Lett
Babtchinski Jew
Bukharin Russian
Weinberg Jew
Gailiss Jew
Ganzburg Jew
Danichevski Jew
Starck German
Sachs Jew
Scheinmann Jew
Erdling Jew
Landauer Jew
Linder Jew
Wolach Czech
Dimanstein Jew
Encukidze Georgian
Ermann Jew
Joffe Jew
Karkline Jew
Knigissen Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamenef) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Krylenko Russian
KrassikofSachs Jew
Kaprik Jew
Kaoul Lett
Ulyanov (lenin) Russian
Latsis Jew
Lander Jew
Lounatcharski Russian
Peterson Lett
Peters Lett
Roudzoutas Jew
Rosine Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Stoutchka Lett
Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
Sosnovski Jew
Skrytnik Jew
Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Teodorovitch Jew
Terian Armenian
Ouritski Jew
Telechkine Russian
Feldmann Jew
Froumkine Jew
Souriupa Ukranian
Tchavtchevadze Georgian
Scheikmann Jew
Rosental Jew
Achkinazi Imeretian
Karakhane Karaim (Jew)
Rose Jew
Sobelson (Radek) Jew
Sclichter Jew
Schikolini Jew
Chklianski Jew
Levine (Pravdine) Jew



“The following is the list of members of the Extraordinary Commission of Moscow:

NAME NATIONALITY
Dzerjinski (president) Pole
Peters (vice-president) Lett
Chklovski Jew
Kheifiss Jew
Zeistine Jew
Razmirovitch Jew
Kronberg Jew
Khaikina Jewess
Karlson Lett
Schaumann Jew
Leontovitch Jew
Jacob Goldine Jew
Glaperstein Jew
Kniggisen Jew
Latzis Lett
Schillenkuss Jew
Janson Lett
Rivkine Jew
Antonof Russian
Delafabre Jew
Tsitkine Jew
Roskirovitch Jew
G. Sverdlof Jew
Biesenski Jew
Blioumkine Jew
Alexandrevitch Russian
I. Model Jew
Routenberg Jew
Pines Jew
Sachs Jew
Daybol Lett
Saissoune Armenian
Deylkenen Lett
Liebert Jew
Vogel German
Zakiss Lett

Jews and Bolshevism: Names and Lists. The Council of the People’s Commissars
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According to Pipes if I remember correctly, a lot of this was due to the fact that Jews were upwardly mobile. There were significant numbers of Jews that were Mensheviks as well as Whites (and even remained that way after the Whites refused condemn the anti Semitic pogroms).
 
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