Is Tom Brady Still Mr. Clutch?

Is Tom Brady Still Mr. "Clutch"?

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#76
#76
And why does it not surprise me that most of the haters in this thread have an Indy avatar? Give credit where credit is due. I'm not afraid to say that Manning has much better arm strength and could be more versatile given different systems. Brady has the intangibles that you can't measure. It helps when you have quite possibly the best coach of all time playing to your strengths just like he does with everything else.
 
#77
#77
emainvol said:
Brady was the only reason they were even remotely in a position to win that game. Also, the throw to Deion Branch that was tipped was still dropped, unless we are talking about different plays. It hit him in the damn hands. That was even more inexcusable than the Welker drop.
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You know what else would have put them in a position to win the game? More than 17 points, especially considering that the Giants were wandering around in a daze on defense for about 75% of the game.

zjcvols said:
Tom Brady is a perfect example that there is really no such thing as clutch.
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emainvol said:
Some guys are very good under pressure and in situations where a big hit, nice pass, three pointer, etc are needed. It may not be clutch in the almost supernatural sense that people seem to speak of it, but there is definitely something there. It's basically just being mentally tougher than the other guy, or other 5 guys, or other 11 guys.
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The fact that there are certain guys whose performance may drop in certain situations doesn't mean that the opposite exists. It's not a zero-sum game, where Player A drops by 10%, therefore someone else improves by 10%.

Who's most likely to make a good pass in a tough situation? A good quarterback who regularly makes good passes. Who's most likely to hit a three-pointer late? A good shooter who gets a good look. Who's most likely to come up with an important hit? A good hitter with a versatile toolbox of skills. Every once in a while there's a moment that involves some random guy who rises up at some improbably important moment, but the overwhelming majority involve quality players doing what they'd normally be expected to do.
 
#78
#78
milohimself said:
If both of them have a share of the blame, then I would peg the Golden Boy's share at about 10-15% and Welker gets the other 85-90%.
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It's funny PTI had this exact conversation. Wilbon said 90% on Brady and TK said 65% on Welker.
 
#79
#79
Here's why I put more blame on Brady for the drop. If that's a great throw, its a TD, if it's a good throw its a completion, that was a bad throw.

Everyone's saying that an NFL receiver should catch it, but a HOF qb that is known for SB comebacks has to hit him in stride when he has time to step into the throw.

It's not entirely on Brady but you can't fully blame it on Welker either, he did the best he could with the ball thrown to him, which was a bad ball. I think it's more like 70-30. If that was thrown by an average QB then it would have been considered a bad pass.

I think Collinsworth saying that Welker catches that 100 out of 100 times inadvertently placed all the blame on him. There's 4-5 guys that catch that 100-100 times and none of them are 5'9".
 
#81
#81
nbakerld said:
It's funny PTI had this exact conversation. Wilbon said 90% on Brady and TK said 65% on Welker.
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Wilbon talks crap about anything that's a big deal in Boston.

The throw wasn't perfect, but it was good enough for Welker to get both his hands on it and get the first down.
 
#82
#82
A lot of these posts are indicative of some real ignorance concerning the NFL and Brady specifically

The numbers are huge of analysts(ex-players, ex-coaches) that would laugh at everyone idiot post implying Brady has been overrated and wasn't a key player on the Pats. Whether some of you idiots like it or not, Brady has been a GREAT QB for most of his NFL career.

I've seen some dumb posts in VN. These rank right up there.

I suppose some people don't mind looking ignorant and foolish
 
#83
#83
Roughneck said:
Here's why I put more blame on Brady for the drop. If that's a great throw, its a TD, if it's a good throw its a completion, that was a bad throw.

Everyone's saying that an NFL receiver should catch it, but a HOF qb that is known for SB comebacks has to hit him in stride when he has time to step into the throw.

It's not entirely on Brady but you can't fully blame it on Welker either, he did the best he could with the ball thrown to him, which was a bad ball. I think it's more like 70-30. If that was thrown by an average QB then it would have been considered a bad pass.

I think Collinsworth saying that Welker catches that 100 out of 100 times inadvertently placed all the blame on him. There's 4-5 guys that catch that 100-100 times and none of them are 5'9".
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Actually, the throw needed to be on the back shoulder. Brady threw it a little too high. If he throws it out in front of him, it is either broken up, intercepted or Welker gets hammered just as the ball is getting there. Phillips had the angle if the throw was "in-stride"
 
#85
#85
nbakerld said:
No doubt he's a very good QB. I just don't understand the "clutch" talk. Certain people get labeled clutch, and others get labeled choker, and they can never shake those labels, no matter what they do.

Lebron James has made more game-winners at a much higher frequency than D-Wade, but every "expert" in the biz thinks D-Wade should take the last shot. Their preconceived perceptions distort reality.

All Brady had to do was beat 2 teams (Ravens and Giants) with a winning record this season, and he couldn't do it.
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LeBron James is the definition of choke when in a big game and the game on the line. He doesn't even want the ball in the 4th quarter if it is coming down to the last few seconds. And those "experts" forgot more than you will ever know
 
#86
#86
While I think Peyton has been a better QB, it could be said he has choked much more often than Brady in the playoffs. If of couse, you want to be objective about it
 
#87
#87
2ironVol said:
LeBron James is the definition of choke when in a big game and the game on the line. He doesn't even want the ball in the 4th quarter if it is coming down to the last few seconds. And those "experts" forgot more than you will ever know
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It's hard to find stats on game-winning shots, so a sample from 2004-2009 is the best I could do:

The "experts" can break down a single game, but no human being has the ability to watch players and accurately calculate who produces the best. It's impossible. Our brains are limited. You can watch 2 players for 82 games and you will not be able to tell me who who shoots 50% and who shoots 45%, even though that is the difference between winning and losing.

Capture-6.png


NBA Game Winning Shots -- leading players

This site strictly counts game-winning attempts, and states Kobe is 7/28 and Lebron is 5/12. Why do the "experts" call Kobe "the closer" again?

Kobe Bryant vs. Lebron James: Game Winning Shots
 
#88
#88
2ironVol said:
While I think Peyton has been a better QB, it could be said he has choked much more often than Brady in the playoffs. If of couse, you want to be objective about it
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Really? Brady has thrown a costly pick in the 4th quarter of a SB. So has Manning. What you don't realize is Brady has thrown a pick in the 2 minute drill twice with a playoff game on the line (@ SD and @ Indy 2006). Manning has never done that. Brady is lucky enough that he still won against SD (cause they fumbled the INT), and people give him a pass against Indy.

Brady also choked away an undefeated season by leading the most prolific offense of all time to only 14 points against a mediocre Giants D. Talk about ultimate choke jobs.
 
#89
#89
nbakerld said:
Really? Brady has thrown a costly pick in the 4th quarter of a SB. So has Manning. What you don't realize is Brady has thrown a pick in the 2 minute drill twice with a playoff game on the line (@ SD and @ Indy 2006). Manning has never done that. Brady is lucky enough that he still won against SD (cause they fumbled the INT), and people give him a pass against Indy.

Brady also choked away an undefeated season by leading the most prolific offense of all time to only 14 points against a mediocre Giants D. Talk about ultimate choke jobs.
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Yeah really and it's not even close IF you look at it objectively. Before Manning got his Super Bowl, he looked pretty shook up in quite a few playoff losses. That was a legimate knock on him until he won the Super Bowl. He wore it out during the regular season and then would fold up like a 5 cent chaise lounge in the playoffs. This isn't an opinion either. Even in college, he folded up against Florida in both his junior and senior seasons. I see you conveniently forgot about Manning's undefeated season only to see him choke in the first game of the playoffs agains Pitt. He looked terrible in that game. Your love for Peyton has clouded your judgement and rendered you unable to offer an objective opinion.

I do agree with you somewhat on LeBron, BUT he has not only choked in some big games at the end, but deferred to others at the end of games when he should have been the one taking it to the hole.
 
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#90
#90
2ironVol said:
Yeah really and it's not even close IF you look at it objectively. Before Manning got his Super Bowl, he looked pretty shook up in quite a few playoff losses. That was a legimate knock on him until he won the Super Bowl. He wore it out during the regular season and then would fold up like a 5 cent chaise lounge in the playoffs. This isn't an opinion either. Even in college, he folded up against Florida in both his junior and senior seasons.

I do agree with you somewhat on LeBron, BUT he has not only choked in some big games at the end, but deferred to others at the end of games when he should have been the one taking it to the hole.
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Before Manning won a Super Bowl he recorded the only perfect game in playoff history. Nobody considered it to be clutch. They only seemed to count the performances he lost in their analysis of his "clutchness". I don't know of any #1 pick who took their team to the playoffs in year 2 and 3, and those 1-score playoff losses count against him in our historical anaylsis. It doesn't make sense.

There are only 3 playoff games in Peyton's NFL career that I would consider to be choke jobs: NYJ '02, NWE '03, and NWE '04.
 
#91
#91
nbakerld said:
Before Manning won a Super Bowl he recorded the only perfect game in playoff history. Nobody considered it to be clutch. They only seemed to count the performances he lost in their analysis of his "clutchness". I don't know of any #1 pick who took their team to the playoffs in year 2 and 3, and those 1-score playoff losses count against him in our historical anaylsis. It doesn't make sense.

There are only 3 playoff games in Peyton's NFL career that I would consider to be choke jobs: NYJ '02, NWE '03, and NWE '04.
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What about the Pittsburgh game?

Regardless, Peyton is one of the ten best ever and it's likely that Brady is too. The guys I would rank ahead of Manning are Montana, Elway, Marino, Unitas and Young. Those I would rank equal are Staubach, Kelly and Favre.
 
#92
#92
2ironVol said:
What about the Pittsburgh game?

Regardless, Peyton is one of the ten best ever and it's likely that Brady is too. The guys I would rank ahead of Manning are Montana, Elway, Marino, Unitas and Young. Those I would rank equal are Staubach, Kelly and Favre.
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I don't think he played poorly in that game. He had 290 yards and 1 TD, and no turnovers against that monster D. He also had them set up for a game-tying 46-yard FG. Passer rating of 91.
 
#93
#93
Lol, why is Tom Brady so hated on a VOLS website... Stop grabbing for straws. Peyton manning is a great qb and so is Tom Brady... Why must you "colts"(Peyton) fans always be hating? Brady's been to 5 Superbowls... 7 last minute drives in the playoffs, most in history. Yes he is clutch. He got to the super bowl and lost... So that makes him un-clutch?

Looking at clutch let's look at a team who averaged 13 wins a season and only made 2 Superbowls.
 
#94
#94
ImTheCrew said:
Lol, why is Tom Brady so hated on a VOLS website... Stop grabbing for straws. Peyton manning is a great qb and so is Tom Brady... Why must you "colts"(Peyton) fans always be hating? Brady's been to 5 Superbowls... 7 last minute drives in the playoffs, most in history. Yes he is clutch. He got to the super bowl and lost... So that makes him un-clutch?

Looking at clutch let's look at a team who averaged 13 wins a season and only made 2 Superbowls.
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Seven last-minute drives in the playoffs....oh boy, you've brought me into this topic.

Let's consider these seven.

2002 against Oakland - Adam Vinatieri FG to tie it, Adam Vinatieri FG to win it

2002 against St. Louis - Adam Vinatieri FG to win it. New England had a 17-3 lead in the 4th, and Tom Brady promptly led the Patriots to two 3-and-outs, giving St. Louis the chance to tie the game (which they did)

2004 against Tennessee - Adam Vinatieri FG to win it. These were also New England's only second-half points.

2004 against Carolina - Adam Vinatieri FG to win it. This was after John Kasay booted a last-minute kickoff out of bounds.

2005 against Philadelphia - In the 4th quarter, Corey Dillon had a TD run and Adam Vinatieri had a FG.

2007 against San Diego - Stephen Gostkowski FG to win it. This was the famous INT-to-fumble game, and it was one of three Brady INTs on the day.

2012 against Baltimore - People who can kick a FG inside of 35 yards: me, and many others who haven't come within a mile of the NFL. People who cannot: Billy Cundiff.

Those last two games were the only ones where Brady actually accounted for any points in the 4th, and they're two of his three worst playoff games.

Just think. If not for his kickers actually scoring the points, would anyone ever talk about Tom Brady and "clutch"?
 
#95
#95
The clutch thing is a little overrated, but both Brady and manning want the ball so I think they have the guts to be leaders and champions.

Of course they don't always succeed, but they have the talent and courage to perform great more often than not.
 
#96
#96
Ohio Vol said:
Seven last-minute drives in the playoffs....oh boy, you've brought me into this topic.

Let's consider these seven.

2002 against Oakland - Adam Vinatieri FG to tie it, Adam Vinatieri FG to win it

2002 against St. Louis - Adam Vinatieri FG to win it. New England had a 17-3 lead in the 4th, and Tom Brady promptly led the Patriots to two 3-and-outs, giving St. Louis the chance to tie the game (which they did)

2004 against Tennessee - Adam Vinatieri FG to win it. These were also New England's only second-half points.

2004 against Carolina - Adam Vinatieri FG to win it. This was after John Kasay booted a last-minute kickoff out of bounds.

2005 against Philadelphia - In the 4th quarter, Corey Dillon had a TD run and Adam Vinatieri had a FG.

2007 against San Diego - Stephen Gostkowski FG to win it. This was the famous INT-to-fumble game, and it was one of three Brady INTs on the day.

2012 against Baltimore - People who can kick a FG inside of 35 yards: me, and many others who haven't come within a mile of the NFL. People who cannot: Billy Cundiff.

Those last two games were the only ones where Brady actually accounted for any points in the 4th, and they're two of his three worst playoff games.

Just think. If not for his kickers actually scoring the points, would anyone ever talk about Tom Brady and "clutch"?
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Lol. So Brady gets zero credit for getting into field goal position?

See where you are headed but this is pretty bad.
 
#97
#97
Vols520 said:
Lol. So Brady gets zero credit for getting into field goal position?

See where you are headed but this is pretty bad.
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Does Peyton Manning get credit for getting Mike Vanderjagt into position?

Does Jim Kelly get credit for getting Scott Norwood into position?

Does Joe Flacco get credit for getting Billy Cundiff into position?

That's the real difference. If those guys actually connect on field goals, then somehow the quarterback gets credit. If they don't, then somehow it's the quarterback's fault.

So if Adam Vinatieri doesn't hit a long field goal in a driving snow, then no one ever talks about Tom Brady and how "clutch" he is. But somehow, at the most important moment in the Super Bowl just a couple of weeks later, we're supposed to gush about "clutch" even though it was his offense that let the Rams come back from a 17-3 4th quarter deficit to tie it. Does anyone talk about "clutch Kurt Warner"? He's the one that led his team back from that two-touchdown deficit; Brady had to make two throws and then let his kicker win it.
 
#99
#99
Just to follow up, I pulled up Joe Montana's "comeback/GW drive log".

He's credited with 5 in the playoffs. The deciding points are as follows:

1981 against Dallas - Montana TD pass to Dwight Clark

1983 against Detroit - Montana TD pass to Freddie Solomon

1989 against Cincinnati - Montana TD pass to John Taylor

1994 against Pittsburgh - Montana TD pass to Tim Barnett (tied game; KC won in overtime)

1994 against Houston - Montana TD pass to Willie Davis

I remember in Cleveland, Tim Couch seemed to have a freakishly high number of late wins relative to how the team actually did. The team is credited with 22 wins during his starts, of which 11 were late scoring drives. I don't know how many of them were actually a Couch TD pass or run, but I know that no one in the world would actually suggest that "Tim Couch is clutch" despite there being superficial evidence that suggests that that's not an inaccurate statement.
 
#100
#100
The qb is the most glamorous position in all sports. They too much credit and too much blame that's just the way it is.


Ohio Vol said:
Does Peyton Manning get credit for getting Mike Vanderjagt into position?

Does Jim Kelly get credit for getting Scott Norwood into position?

Does Joe Flacco get credit for getting Billy Cundiff into position?

That's the real difference. If those guys actually connect on field goals, then somehow the quarterback gets credit. If they don't, then somehow it's the quarterback's fault.

So if Adam Vinatieri doesn't hit a long field goal in a driving snow, then no one ever talks about Tom Brady and how "clutch" he is. But somehow, at the most important moment in the Super Bowl just a couple of weeks later, we're supposed to gush about "clutch" even though it was his offense that let the Rams come back from a 17-3 4th quarter deficit to tie it. Does anyone talk about "clutch Kurt Warner"? He's the one that led his team back from that two-touchdown deficit; Brady had to make two throws and then let his kicker win it.
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