Islam, is it a religion of peace or war?

#526
#526
Behr said:
Most of you guys are more knowledgeable on this stuff than I am and that's why I don't post in these threads, but I'll give you my personal opinion on this.

If everyone were to wait until they were married and only had sex with their spouse, the way he intended, this would be a different world. I mean, think of the abortions alone...

So in his his eyes, yes, I can see it on the same level.

Obviously if you look at it just as single acts, yes, a single act of murder is quit a bit more serious than a single act of premarital sex, but pretty sure God looks at it in a much bigger picture than that.

And according to my understanding, they are both sins and a sin is a sin, but you can be forgiven for both. So just for this conversation sake, what does it matter if one is worse than the other? He said don't do either, but if you do either go to him and genuinely ask for forgiveness and don't do it again. To me its like telling your kids not to lie and that some are bigger than others, but a lie is a lie and if they lie to you, no TV for a week. I know that's not a perfect analogy, but you should get my point.

And I know that opens a whole other can of worms, but thats my belief on the question you asked.

Just thought you might appreciate a simple mans opinion.
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These are the same group of people whose moral capacity leads to a 13 year old crossdresser being being handed dollar bills and celebrated for provocative dancing.
 
#527
#527
Orange_Crush said:
You are making an error in classification.
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I have no idea what you're talking about.

Orange_Crush said:
You know damn well none of those philosophies show transcendent, inherent morality or human value, which is the subject at hand. And again, if you want to argue them, argue them. But they're not even strong enough for you to believe them.
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I don't have a PhD in philosophy, and most professional philosophers do believe in them. Yet you find the fact that I'm not convinced all the evidence you need to dismiss them?
 
#528
#528
Wafflestomper said:
I have no idea what you're talking about.
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I don't care. I suspect you do. But either way I don't care.

I don't have a PhD in philosophy, and most professional philosophers do believe in them. Yet you find the fact that I'm not convinced all the evidence you need to dismiss them?
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No. As I've said, I've studied on my own. I've invited you to argue them if you want. You don't. End of story.

It has no bearing on my conversation with rjd. And like i said, we both know they don't claim to present transcendent values or attributes, which is the subject at hand.
 
#529
#529
Roustabout said:
This would be sad if it were not so comical. North is an OBJECTIVE reality by which we can train our compass. Imagine if North varied and the pilot said well, i got you where you wanted to go. The compass says so. I seriously doubt you'd accept that, yet you are asking us to accept that in the moral sense. It's absurd. And, your answer has basically been to cross your arms, pout and say, "it's just your opinon, but god, blah, blah."

Let me paint it out using YOUR example. You, and your moral capacity are the compass. So, what is north? This is the ENTIRE gist of what OC has been trying to communicate. If north is you, or in you, then it means nothing ultimately. Because that could vary from individual and culture. And, it's completely dependent on the factors that brought us to where we are today, whether that be evolution of experience. If moral north varies then nothing you could determine today, could or should be expected tomorrow. Progress would mean nothing, and it's arbitrary and not fixed. It's essentially shooting the arrow and then moving the target to where it landed.

Your response has been nothing more than personal incredulity. "It's just y'alls opinion, 'because God......"
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So what? Your opinion is no different!! I'm not smuggling a d@mn thing. Call it progress, moral evolution, or whatever term makes you comfortable. It's where we are right now. When I say something is immoral, I'm saying it from my perspective. My perspective is all I have, and your perspective is all you have.

The point is you guys keep saying I can't make a moral judgement yet here I am. I'm doing the exact same thing you are yet you are crying about it because it doesn't fit in your neat supernatural narrative.
 
#531
#531
Orange_Crush said:
No. As I've said, I've studied on my own. I've invited you to argue them if you want. You don't. End of story.
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Well I've studied divine command theory. Therefore it is false. End of story. See, I can play this stupid game too. I'm sure it's different when you do it though.

Orange_Crush said:
It has no bearing on my conversation with rjd. And like i said, we both know they don't claim to present transcendent values or attributes, which is the subject at hand.
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What transcendent values or attributes are you talking about and why do they matter?
 
#532
#532
ClearwaterVol said:
Okay Marcus. "Never ceases to amaze me when people are intent on arguing about a book they never read or studied, about a God they claim doesnt exist."

Is just reading the Bible sufficient to argue? Or must I study it? Can I do both and still argue regarding a god that I claim doesn't exist or must I believe?

You claim to have read the Quran, but you haven't studied it. You claim that your interpretation is the only one, yet muslim scholars disagree and debate its meaning. They use historical context and related passages to gain understanding while you cherry pick out passages that suit your purpose.

When someone does that with the bible you get defensive. For example, the bible does permit me to beat my slaves, right?
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Dang, you got slaves too? Here I thought I was one of the only ones. Course mine grew up and moved away and won't come back to visit.
 
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#533
#533
MercyPercy said:
We are all just giving our personal opinion here.. despite what some folks would have you believe. ;)



Married folks still get abortions. I'm not sure the coat hangers of history ever minded one way or another.

Would it be a different world? Probably. Would it be a "better world"? Maybe in some ways, maybe not in others, for various reasons. Reduced overpopulation, reduction of a welfare state mentality, kids growing up with both parents more often, less spread of STDs. I can acknowledge that. There would also probably be negatives, like more mass shootings by young guys. I'm telling you, not getting laid is a super common thing amonst those nuts. However, this goes along the same lines of things that we know are bad for us, and hurt us as a society in similar ways. Alcohol, fast food, cigarettes, vice.. these can also cause societal problems. Yet murder is illegal, and pre-marital sex and cigarettes are legal. Do you think you would support a ban on pre-marital sex if it came up in our country, since it's just as damaging to society as murder, in the eyes of God? What about cigarettes, alcohol, soda?



I don't agree with this statement. If, in the eyes of God, sin is sin and one is no more damaging or morally reprehensible than the other, you can't say one is more serious. That's a contradiction.



It matters because I am personally trying to compare morality ad I understand it with the morality of the bible, and I just don't see how you can equivocate pre-marital sex and murder. That's the type of antiquated belief system that leads to muzzies stoning women in the sand pits. I understand the kids lying analogy, but when comparing murder and pre-marital sex, I don't think it carries much significance. Apples to oranges.
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Yea, Its my belief that abortions would be dramatically less, but whatever, you gave a pretty good list of other positives.

Mass shootings caused by not getting laid? Not gonna argue but that's new for me. I'd bet if they had never been laid in the first place the number of mass shootings caused by not getting laid would drop drastically too.

A sin is a sin. How you look at it and how God looks at it are two different ways, how can that be a contradiction? I think murder is a bigger more serious sin than sleeping with a girl before marriage, but in Gods eyes they are both sins and he wants whoever commits those sins to repent and never do either again. It's really simple if you think about it, but most people don't like it so they don't want to understand it.

Thought you would get where I was going with the kids lying analogy, it was just an illustration, not a comparison.
 
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#534
#534
Wafflestomper said:
Well I've studied divine command theory. Therefore it is false. End of story. See, I can play this stupid game too. I'm sure it's different when you do it though.



What transcendent values or attributes are you talking about and why do they matter?
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I've presented the basis for a Christian morality. That's the difference. What's stupid is for you to offer the ultimate elephant hurling by appealing to an unknown number of arguments that you won't present and expecting me to deal with them. That's what's stupid.
 
#535
#535
rjd970 said:
So what? Your opinion is no different!! I'm not smuggling a d@mn thing. Call it progress, moral evolution, or whatever term makes you comfortable. It's where we are right now. When I say something is immoral, I'm saying it from my perspective. My perspective is all I have, and your perspective is all you have.

The point is you guys keep saying I can't make a moral judgement yet here I am. I'm doing the exact same thing you are yet you are crying about it because it doesn't fit in your neat supernatural narrative.
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SMH

Ok, then why do you keep criticizing my perspective?

Who said you can’t make moral judgments? That is an epistemological matter. I’m speaking on moral ontology. The issue isn’t whether you CAN make mora judgments, but whether you are justified and/or smuggling in OM.
 
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#536
#536
Orange_Crush said:
I've presented the basis for a Christian morality. That's the difference. What's stupid is for you to offer the ultimate elephant hurling by appealing to an unknown number of arguments that you won't present and expecting me to deal with them. That's what's stupid.
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I choose to let Kant and Hume kick each other in the nuts.
 
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#537
#537
Is reading the Bible enough to understand Christianity or does it involve more in-depth study? If that's the case, then wouldn't the same standard apply to the Quran? I am not a follower of Islam. As such, I feel it wrong for me to condemn their religion, just as I feel it would be wrong for them to condemn my religion. At the end of the day, I just want to live beside my neighbor in peace. I don't have to agree with him or his chosen religion/lifestyle/politics for that to happen. He's as entitled to his views as I am to mine. I can condemn individual actions, but I think it wrong to condemn an entire religion over the choices of some practitioners.

Personally, I think much of the inflammation between religions is caused by politics.
 
#538
#538
Behr said:
Yea, Its my belief that abortions would be dramatically less, but whatever, you gave a pretty good list of other positives.

Mass shootings caused by not getting laid? Not gonna argue but that's new for me. I'd bet if they had never been laid in the first place the number of mass shootings caused by not getting laid would drop drastically too.

A sin is a sin. How you look at it and how God looks at it are two different ways, how can that be a contradiction? I think murder is a bigger more serious sin than sleeping with a girl before marriage, but in Gods eyes they are both sins and he wants whoever commits those sins to repent and never do either again. It's really simple if you think about it, but most people don't like it so they don't want to understand it.

Thought you would get where I was going with the kids lying analogy, it was just an illustration, not a comparison.
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Analogies usually fail on this group.
 
#539
#539
Behr said:
Yea, Its my belief that abortions would be dramatically less, but whatever, you gave a pretty good list of other positives.

Mass shootings caused by not getting laid? Not gonna argue but that's new for me. I'd bet if they had never been laid in the first place the number of mass shootings caused by not getting laid would drop drastically too.

A sin is a sin. How you look at it and how God looks at it are two different ways, how can that be a contradiction? I think murder is a bigger more serious sin than sleeping with a girl before marriage, but in Gods eyes they are both sins and he wants whoever commits those sins to repent and never do either again. It's really simple if you think about it, but most people don't like it so they don't want to understand it.

Thought you would get where I was going with the kids lying analogy, it was just an illustration, not a comparison.
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How can you think murder is a bigger, more serious sin when god says it isn't, unless you are saying that you don't believe god..?
 
#540
#540
Weezer said:
Is reading the Bible enough to understand Christianity or does it involve more in-depth study? If that's the case, then wouldn't the same standard apply to the Quran? I am not a follower of Islam. As such, I feel it wrong for me to condemn their religion, just as I feel it would be wrong for them to condemn my religion. At the end of the day, I just want to live beside my neighbor in peace. I don't have to agree with him or his chosen religion/lifestyle/politics for that to happen. He's as entitled to his views as I am to mine. I can condemn individual actions, but I think it wrong to condemn an entire religion over the choices of some practitioners.

Personally, I think much of the inflammation between religions is caused by politics.
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I suggest you study up on Mohammad
 
#542
#542
Orange_Crush said:
I've presented the basis for a Christian morality. That's the difference. What's stupid is for you to offer the ultimate elephant hurling by appealing to an unknown number of arguments that you won't present and expecting me to deal with them. That's what's stupid.
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How is that more stupid than dismissing an unknown number of arguments you say you're well read on as if they don't exist? What transcendent values or attributes are you talking about and why do they matter? Is it safe to just go ahead and dismiss your argument because I know it's bull****?
 
#543
#543
Roustabout said:
What exactly are you referencing?
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All sin being equal was taught in my church as a youth, I remember hearing that sermon more than once. And it's been repeated on here a multitude of times by Christians.

I would say, judge the crime by the punishment if we are assuming God is perfect and righteous and just. Pre-marital sex with no forgiveness? Hell. Murder with no forgiveness? Hell. It's the equivalent of our justice system putting folks on death row for bumping uglies.
 
#544
#544
MercyPercy said:
All sin being equal was taught in my church as a youth, I remember hearing that sermon more than once. And it's been repeated on here a multitude of times by Christians.

I would say, judge the crime by the punishment if we are assuming God is perfect and righteous and just. Pre-marital sex with no forgiveness? Hell. Murder with no forgiveness? Hell. It's the equivalent of our justice system putting folks on death row for bumping uglies.
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There is only one "unforgivable" sin.
 
#547
#547
MercyPercy said:
All sin being equal was taught in my church as a youth, I remember hearing that sermon more than once. And it's been repeated on here a multitude of times by Christians.

I would say, judge the crime by the punishment if we are assuming God is perfect and righteous and just. Pre-marital sex with no forgiveness? Hell. Murder with no forgiveness? Hell. It's the equivalent of our justice system putting folks on death row for bumping uglies.
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Yes, your church.
You said, “God says it isn’t.”
Where are you forgiving there is no forgiveness for these things?

If you want to have an actual discussion on this I’m game.
 
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