Israel vs Palestinians

[jvol1]

You are resurrected to a judgement. Some to life and some to death. Nowhere in scripture does G-d ever say anyone is resurrected to life in torment. It’s a complete joke to suggest that life in torment is death. That second death is to be remembered no more by G-d. If G-d remembers you no more you never really existed. If that’s not punishment/reward enough for the definition of “just” then we clearly have a communication problem.
I would recommend that everyone stop trying to impose their beliefs and definitions on the Creator of all things and instead try to read what He says of himself and take his word for it. My not liking it isn’t relevant to the actions of that creator.
After all he’s the creator and I am at his mercy regardless of my opinions

Edit: I do not believe in predestination. I am an extreme free will guy. I just understand the function of time and it’s relativity.

I would distinguish between atonement and punishment. Those who wish to atone deserve all the chances they need to do so, possibly across multiple lives.

For those who are completely unrepentant, who believe that a "might makes right/do what thou wilt" philosophy is the true good, then is hell really punishment? By process of moral inversion hell is kind of heaven for evil people.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Classically, the difference between a tyrant and a just king is that the just king keeps his own laws. While I would acknowledge that God could do whatever he wants and say that's the law, I dont think he would hold himself to a different standard than his creations -- because he's just.

I guess my model for soul is something like the "personality ball" from westworld that gets inserted into the chassis/body at some point during its life -- that's pure speculation, though.

He doesn’t hold himself to a different law than he ever has.
People not understanding what he has always done and always been about doesn’t mean he’s changed. Quite the opposite. He’s the same yesterday today and forever. I get that people don’t like who he’s always been and tried to humanize him but that at their ignorance.

As far as the soul is concerned, it isn’t preexisting, it’s not immortal so after its judgment it’s either granted righteousness/immortality or it ceases to exist. To the all mighty it is forgotten and never existed.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I would distinguish between atonement and punishment. Those who wish to atone deserve all the chances they need to do so, possibly across multiple lives.

For those who are completely unrepentant, who believe that a "might makes right/do what thou wilt" philosophy is the true good, then is hell really punishment? By process of moral inversion hell is kind of heaven for evil people.

I would agree that “heaven” as described by G-d would be uncomfortable (hell) for those who oppose G-d.

I have tramas from childhood that I’m working through openly. It can be found in other places on this site but I would not suggest looking for it. I say that to say this. I’ve developed an enjoyment for pain as a coping mechanism. The whole lake of fire would test the limits of that but not everyone is adverse to pain. And feeling can be turned off.
There is no scripture supporting eternal life in torment. It’s added dogma to scare people into a belief system.
But since you are clearly very intelligent and think things through……would saying your followers of G-d because you are scared of hell really be the saving faith as described from the beginning to end of scripture?

 

[Orangeslice13]

@jvol1
I’ve not really interacted with you in the past. I recognize your screen name. I now consider that an error. I have enjoyed discussing this topic with you

 

[OrangeTsar]

He doesn’t hold himself to a different law than he ever has.
People not understanding what he has always done and always been about doesn’t mean he’s changed. Quite the opposite. He’s the same yesterday today and forever. I get that people don’t like who he’s always been and tried to humanize him but that at their ignorance.

As far as the soul is concerned, it isn’t preexisting, it’s not immortal so after its judgment it’s either granted righteousness/immortality or it ceases to exist. To the all mighty it is forgotten and never existed.

 

[jvol1]

I would agree that “heaven” as described by G-d would be uncomfortable (hell) for those who oppose G-d.

I have tramas from childhood that I’m working through openly. It can be found in other places on this site but I would not suggest looking for it. I say that to say this. I’ve developed an enjoyment for pain as a coping mechanism. The whole lake of fire would test the limits of that but not everyone is adverse to pain. And feeling can be turned off.
There is no scripture supporting eternal life in torment. It’s added dogma to scare people into a belief system.
But since you are clearly very intelligent and think things through……would saying your followers of G-d because you are scared of hell really be the saving faith as described from the beginning to end of scripture?

I think I would say you get the afterlife you deserve. I would agree that fear of hell probably would not do much to bring a soul's nature closer to god,, but it would be good enough to get you further chances to work on perfecting your nature in future lives.

Sorry you can't continue the discussion. It's rare to have any sort of communication about these topics, and this has been fairly good.

 

[Orangeburst]

This may go back to dispensations..death for the unbeliever,eternal torment for ones who take the MOB. Even Satan is not put to death.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I think I would say you get the afterlife you deserve. I would agree that fear of hell probably would not do much to bring a soul's nature closer to god,, but it would be good enough to get you further chances to work on perfecting your nature in future lives.

Sorry you can't continue the discussion. It's rare to have any sort of communication about these topics, and this has been fairly good.

I can happily continue the conversation. I appreciate your willingness and perspectives. I apologize if I miscommunicated that

 

[Orangeslice13]

This may go back to dispensations..death for the unbeliever,eternal torment for ones who take the MOB. Even Satan is not put to death.

There’s a difference between the punishment for the immortal (fallen angles) and the corruptible. (Mortal humans)

 

[Orangeslice13]

View attachment 710813

Neither of your examples speaks of endless punishment. Both were used in ancient writings, including scripture, to convey permanence and/or finality.

The smoke of the destruction of sodom rises forever.
Can you show me where Sodom is currently burning?


To have this conversation you’re going to need to understand the original language and how things were used at the time it was written.

 

[OrangeTsar]

I think I would say you get the afterlife you deserve…….

I sure hope not. We all „deserve“ hell as mankind is in rebellion against God and every one of us sins daily.
That is the whole beauty of the Gospel. God‘s dispensation of Grace by sending His perfect Son as full payment and taking upon Himself the punishment we „deserved“.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I sure hope not. We all „deserve“ hell as mankind is in rebellion against God and every one of us sins daily.
That is the whole beauty of the Gospel. God‘s dispensation of Grace by sending His perfect Son as full payment and taking upon Himself the punishment we „deserved“.

There is no dispensation of grace.
Grace has always saved you.

Paul argued salvation by grace before the Bereans (the authorities on Torah) and was found to be correct.

 

[OrangeTsar]

Neither of your examples speaks of endless punishment. Both were used in ancient writings, including scripture, to convey permanence and/or finality.

The smoke of the destruction of sodom rises forever.
Can you show me where Sodom is currently burning?


To have this conversation you’re going to need to understand the original language and how things were used at the time it was written.

I would be very very VERY happy if your interpretation is correct.
But to me, it is an awfully dangerous gamble to live my life relying on such a hope. The consequences of being wrong are particularly disagreeable.

 

[OrangeTsar]

There is no dispensation of grace.
Grace has always saved you.

Paul argued salvation by grace before the Bereans (the authorities on Torah) and was found to be correct.

Maybe dispensation wasn’t the correct word. Would „gift“ be more agreeable?

 

[MHS Rebel]

Up until ~1948, the world called the Israelis the "People of Palestine."

 

[Orangeslice13]

I would be very very VERY happy if your interpretation is correct.
But to me, it is an awfully dangerous gamble to live my life relying on such a hope. The consequences of being wrong are particularly disagreeable.

The consequences of being wrong are irrelevant.
If you’re seeking the G-d of my father’s in trusting faithfulness then the consequences for those who don’t love G-d has no bearing on your situation…..however……if you’re just going through the motions because you’re afraid of hell then you could be in line to hear the words of Mathew 7:21.
“Depart from my , you who practice lawlessness, I don’t know you”

You understand those that hear that are all hell fearing Christians would told Yeshua all the things they’d done for him or in his name?

 

[Orangeslice13]

Maybe dispensation wasn’t the correct word. Would „gift“ be more agreeable?

Anything that doesn’t convey a blasphemy that G-d somehow changes over time when scripture is clear that He doesn’t

 

[OrangeTsar]

Anything that doesn’t convey a blasphemy that G-d somehow changes over time when scripture is clear that He doesn’t

Indeed. Christ and Grace were ordained before the beginning of time

 

[OrangeTsar]

The consequences of being wrong are irrelevant.
If you’re seeking the G-d of my father’s in trusting faithfulness then the consequences for those who don’t love G-d has no bearing on your situation…..however……if you’re just going through the motions because you’re afraid of hell then you could be in line to hear the words of Mathew 7:21.
“Depart from my , you who practice lawlessness, I don’t know you”

You understand those that hear that are all hell fearing Christians would told Yeshua all the things they’d done for him or in his name?

I am in the same boat as CS Lewis in believing in an eternal hell (being final and absolute isolation) but that God will go to the utmost to keep people from going there; but that the very end, some people will continue to refuse Grace. Lewis thinks that the only people there would be the ones who choose to be

 

[Orangeslice13]

I am in the same boat as CS Lewis in believing in an eternal hell (being final and absolute isolation) but that God will go to the utmost to keep people from going there; but that the very end, some people will continue to refuse Grace. Lewis thinks that the only people there would be the ones who choose to be

It’s not a place to go.
If you’re not found to be righteous the you are dead. The wages of sin is death. Not life in separation from G-d. If you are separated from G-d then you don’t exist. If you’re not remembered then you never actually existed.

 

[OrangeTsar]

It’s not a place to go.
If you’re not found to be righteous the you are dead. The wages of sin is death. Not life in separation from G-d. If you are separated from G-d then you don’t exist. If you’re not remembered then you never actually existed.

So do think the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus told by Jesus is a symbolic parable and not an actual account?
„And in hell, he lifted up his eyes“ and „begged that a single drop of water be placed on his tongue?“

 

[Orangeslice13]

Well that’s technically not true.
It is a place to go, you’re just not there for more than a split second

 

[Orangeslice13]

So do think the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus told by Jesus is a symbolic parable and not an actual account?
„And in hell, he lifted up his eyes“ and „begged that a single drop of water be placed on his tongue?“

Rich man is a parable.

Unless you think that Abraham is a god who accepts prayers and answers them

Who believed in “hades” when messiah was speaking?

The Greeks or Jews?

 

[Orangeslice13]

Thought experiment.
Think of it as a parable and then tell me its meaning.

 

[85SugarVol]

https://fox56news.com/news/nation-world/fbi-says-it-thwarted-apparent-plot-against-aipac/