Israel vs Palestinians

#27,778
#27,778
It is written that G-d will not remember the unrighteous.
The only reason we know things happened is that there’s evidence. We don’t know any ancient Egyptians because we don’t remember them. If they didn’t leave monuments we would not know they were ever here.
The question is would a Just G-d and creator of all things create someone simply to destroy? If there is no time to G-d, and that G-d doesn’t remember you, did you ever really exist?
 
#27,780
#27,780
Orangeslice13 said:
Just because our future is G-Ds past, doesn’t mean the decision we make….that have already been seen by G-d….we’re not made by us as a result of free will.
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I 100% agree with you that God exists completely outside of time. He knows all things past, present and future and is unaffected by the passage of time as we are. Calvinists/predestination/predeterminists believe that some men are born predetermined to go to Hell, and the "elect" or "chosen" are born to go to Heaven. I think that's total bullcrap and there's lots of scripture to support our free will to choose.
Few things are black/white though and there are always exceptions. There are people alive on this planet right now who have never even heard of the God of Isaac and Jacob, Jesus, etc...children that have not yet reached the age of accountability, mentally challenged folks unable to understand etc etc. As always, things are complicated. God knows many will not choose Him...he knew there would be a revolt in Heaven and a third of the angels would be cast down...including his favorite and most beautiful. Doesn't mean that God wanted these things to happen, or made them occur..He just allowed them to happen because the host of Heaven were given free will just like us. All of this is just my opinion based on scripture, sermons, lessons etc. I could be totally wrong based on mistranslations, misunderstanding, and my own sinful mind. I certainly am in no place to judge anyone else or their conclusions. Least of all yours. Your Messianic Judaism fascinates me and I have discussed it with my daughter several times. I dont like Calvinism or Catholicism though and think both have lead millions astray.
 
#27,781
#27,781
marcusluvsvols said:
I 100% agree with you that God exists completely outside of time. He knows all things past, present and future and is unaffected by the passage of time as we are. Calvinists/predestination/predeterminists believe that some men are born predetermined to go to Hell, and the "elect" or "chosen" are born to go to Heaven. I think that's total bullcrap and there's lots of scripture to support our free will to choose.
Few things are black/white though and there are always exceptions. There are people alive on this planet right now who have never even heard of the God of Isaac and Jacob, Jesus, etc...children that have not yet reached the age of accountability, mentally challenged folks unable to understand etc etc. As always, things are complicated. God knows many will not choose Him...he knew there would be a revolt in Heaven and a third of the angels would be cast down...including his favorite and most beautiful. Doesn't mean that God wanted these things to happen, or made them occur..He just allowed them to happen because the host of Heaven were given free will just like us. All of this is just my opinion based on scripture, sermons, lessons etc. I could be totally wrong based on mistranslations, misunderstanding, and my own sinful mind. I certainly am in no place to judge anyone else or their conclusions. Least of all yours. Your Messianic Judaism fascinates me and I have discussed it with my daughter several times. I dont like Calvinism or Catholicism though and think both have lead millions astray.
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Good post. There are so many things that we just don't/won't have firm answers to in our mortal lives. As you said, time is not really a thing to God. That is why I will never believe the 6000 year people. 7 days of creation in Gods time could very well equate to 3 or 4 billion of our understood years.

If God knows the future, then why would he create Lucifer and those that sided with him? Lucifer and Michael are still the only arc-angels that we know of.

If we were Gods greatest creation, then why would he even create us knowing that many of these creations that he loved so much would be damned?

All things are supposedly to be revealed unto us, and I have a lot of questions lol.
 
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#27,782
#27,782
marcusluvsvols said:
I 100% agree with you that God exists completely outside of time. He knows all things past, present and future and is unaffected by the passage of time as we are. Calvinists/predestination/predeterminists believe that some men are born predetermined to go to Hell, and the "elect" or "chosen" are born to go to Heaven. I think that's total bullcrap and there's lots of scripture to support our free will to choose.
Few things are black/white though and there are always exceptions. There are people alive on this planet right now who have never even heard of the God of Isaac and Jacob, Jesus, etc...children that have not yet reached the age of accountability, mentally challenged folks unable to understand etc etc. As always, things are complicated. God knows many will not choose Him...he knew there would be a revolt in Heaven and a third of the angels would be cast down...including his favorite and most beautiful. Doesn't mean that God wanted these things to happen, or made them occur..He just allowed them to happen because the host of Heaven were given free will just like us. All of this is just my opinion based on scripture, sermons, lessons etc. I could be totally wrong based on mistranslations, misunderstanding, and my own sinful mind. I certainly am in no place to judge anyone else or their conclusions. Least of all yours. Your Messianic Judaism fascinates me and I have discussed it with my daughter several times. I dont like Calvinism or Catholicism though and think both have lead millions astray.
Click to expand...
you believe in dispensationalism? it makes a lot of sense and solves alot of suppossed conflictive Scripture. Even basic there is NT and OT, but there is apparently hyper dispensationalism. I tell you what, there are so many various interpretations of Scripture, ie theology, it is disturbing. Frankly cases can be made several ways that all make sense, Take Hebrews 10..iirc..

I think those that havent heard the word are bound by conscience we are all born with. Conscience-Law-Gospel
 
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#27,783
#27,783
marcusluvsvols said:
I 100% agree with you that God exists completely outside of time. He knows all things past, present and future and is unaffected by the passage of time as we are. Calvinists/predestination/predeterminists believe that some men are born predetermined to go to Hell, and the "elect" or "chosen" are born to go to Heaven. I think that's total bullcrap and there's lots of scripture to support our free will to choose.
Few things are black/white though and there are always exceptions. There are people alive on this planet right now who have never even heard of the God of Isaac and Jacob, Jesus, etc...children that have not yet reached the age of accountability, mentally challenged folks unable to understand etc etc. As always, things are complicated. God knows many will not choose Him...he knew there would be a revolt in Heaven and a third of the angels would be cast down...including his favorite and most beautiful. Doesn't mean that God wanted these things to happen, or made them occur..He just allowed them to happen because the host of Heaven were given free will just like us. All of this is just my opinion based on scripture, sermons, lessons etc. I could be totally wrong based on mistranslations, misunderstanding, and my own sinful mind. I certainly am in no place to judge anyone else or their conclusions. Least of all yours. Your Messianic Judaism fascinates me and I have discussed it with my daughter several times. I dont like Calvinism or Catholicism though and think both have lead millions astray.
Click to expand...
There is no eternal torture for the unrighteous. The concept of hell is Greek corruption. It is prideful humans who wish to permanently punish those who disagree with them. G-d never says he’s punishing the unrighteous with anything other than death. In fact G-d says he forgets the unrighteous which means they never actually existed.

Lol
But I digress.
I hope you have a joyful Saturnalia with your family
 
#27,785
#27,785
Orangeburst said:
you believe in dispensationalism? it makes a lot of sense and solves alot of suppossed conflictive Scripture. Even basic there is NT and OT, but there is apparently hyper dispensationalism. I tell you what, there are so many various interpretations of Scripture, ie theology, it is disturbing. Frankly cases can be made several ways that all make sense, Take Hebrews 10..iirc..

I think those that havent heard the word are bound by conscience we are all born with. Conscience-Law-Gospel
Click to expand...
The problem is how G-d describes himself

-not a man that I would change
-not a man who would lie
-my law is established in heaven and is the foundation of all things
-the ancient of days who is the same yesterday today and forever
-they say I’ve changed but they don’t know me and are not my people.
And on and on. Dispensation is completely at odds with the G-d of A, I and J
 
#27,786
#27,786
Orangeslice13 said:
There is no eternal torture for the unrighteous. The concept of hell is Greek corruption. It is prideful humans who wish to permanently punish those who disagree with them.
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Well said.
I think everyone participating in this thread already knows better, but the bible doesn't say our souls are inhherently immortal or eternal.
 
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#27,791
#27,791
Orangeslice13 said:
There is no eternal torture for the unrighteous. The concept of hell is Greek corruption. It is prideful humans who wish to permanently punish those who disagree with them. G-d never says he’s punishing the unrighteous with anything other than death. In fact G-d says he forgets the unrighteous which means they never actually existed.

Lol
But I digress.
I hope you have a joyful Saturnalia with your family
Click to expand...

We agree on this too i think. I believe that Hell is just the term for "separation from God for eternity" not a lake of fire and torment. I dont know if that means an eternity in the empty nothingness of space, dark and alone...or simply ceasing to exist like you said. The concept of fire/torture/ levels of Hell comes from the Greeks and Dantes Inferno though from what I understand. Either way, eternity separated from the Creator is not something i desire nor wish for others.
 
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#27,792
#27,792
Orangeslice13 said:
Correct so if he says that some are made simply to destroy, and one one the signs of the end is men born without souls then it must be morally just for him to do so.
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I'm not aware of anyone being made to be destroyed or God having said anything to that effect. It would undermine the moral law to some degree if God were arbitrarily destroying people and their conformity with moral law was irrelavent. God just set this place in motion.

How do you determine if a person has a soul? That's knavery of the highest degree to delve into that territory.
 
#27,793
#27,793
Orangeslice13 said:
There is no eternal torture for the unrighteous. The concept of hell is Greek corruption. It is prideful humans who wish to permanently punish those who disagree with them. G-d never says he’s punishing the unrighteous with anything other than death. In fact G-d says he forgets the unrighteous which means they never actually existed.

Lol
But I digress.
I hope you have a joyful Saturnalia with your family
Click to expand...
Again lack of belief in after life would seem to undermine the moral law. If there are no consequences is there any reason to be good or evil? This seems to justify a materialistic sort of life philosophy as does your belief in predestination. I guess I just think there'.s more out there and that the moral laws are no different than our own criminal laws. Not that everyone who isn't perfect ends up in hell, I think there are a lot of places out there similar to this one that are somewhere in between.
 
#27,794
#27,794
jvol1 said:
I'm not aware of anyone being made to be destroyed or God having said anything to that effect. It would undermine the moral law to some degree if God were arbitrarily destroying people and their conformity with moral law was irrelavent. God just set this place in motion.

How do you determine if a person has a soul? That's knavery of the highest degree to delve into that territory.
Click to expand...
How exactly would G-d deciding to do whatever he wanted with his creation undermine his moral law? It’s his law. It exists because he says it does. He is the moral law giver so wherever he does is within his will/law.

How do you define a soul?
Genesis says that when G-d breaths live into us we become a living soul.
 
#27,795
#27,795
jvol1 said:
Again lack of belief in after life would seem to undermine the moral law. If there are no consequences is there any reason to be good or evil? This seems to justify a materialistic sort of life philosophy as does your belief in predestination. I guess I just think there'.s more out there and that the moral laws are no different than our own criminal laws. Not that everyone who isn't perfect ends up in hell, I think there are a lot of places out there similar to this one that are somewhere in between.
Click to expand...
You are resurrected to a judgement. Some to life and some to death. Nowhere in scripture does G-d ever say anyone is resurrected to life in torment. It’s a complete joke to suggest that life in torment is death. That second death is to be remembered no more by G-d. If G-d remembers you no more you never really existed. If that’s not punishment/reward enough for the definition of “just” then we clearly have a communication problem.
I would recommend that everyone stop trying to impose their beliefs and definitions on the Creator of all things and instead try to read what He says of himself and take his word for it. My not liking it isn’t relevant to the actions of that creator.
After all he’s the creator and I am at his mercy regardless of my opinions

Edit: I do not believe in predestination. I am an extreme free will guy. I just understand the function of time and it’s relativity.
 
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