Israel vs Palestinians

#21,027
#21,027
PKT_VOL said:
Should we have already divested from the Middle East? Absolutely. We should have done it back in 1967.

However, it is disingenuous to act as if the Middle East would be singing kumbaya sans the US. These tribes have been fighting each other for thousands of years and would continue with or without US involvement.
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We got pulled into the Middle East in the 1790s with Barbary Conflict. We weren't looking for it, but they started it.

People forget that Islam has always been about Global Jihad and Expansion.

They started wars with the Byzantine Empire and Sassanid Persia and overran both. They invaded the Kingdom of the Visigoths in Iberia and took it over. They invaded France but got their butts kicked by Charles Martel at Tours.

They spent almost 1000 years trying to take over Anatolia until the Ottomans finally did it and took Constantinople which lead to brutal Muslim conquest/oppression of the various peoples in the Balkans. They were only stopped at Vienna which they besieged twice.

They have ruthlessly expanded constantly on our ancestors. To the Arab World, America (regardless of how we see ourselves) are still Christian Franks and the enemy.
 
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#21,028
#21,028
PKT_VOL said:
Practically everything since 10/7 has been a strategic disaster for Israel. At every turn, Israel has chosen short-term beneficial actions at the expense of long-term costs.
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JMO but I think Israel is playing the long game here. They were on the verge of normalizing relations with the bigger players in the region.

Then 10-7, I think they realized the Iran's of the world would never let that happen so long as they had a wedge to use against them. Hamas and IJ were those wedges.

In their minds they are removing the wedge so it can't be a problem down the road.
 
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#21,029
#21,029
KB5252 said:
JMO but I think Israel is playing the long game here. They were on the verge of normalizing relations with the bigger players in the region.

Then 10-7, I think they realized the Iran's of the world would never let that happen so long as they had a wedge to use against them. Hamas and IJ were those wedges.

In their minds they are removing the wedge so it can't be a problem down the road.
Click to expand...

The only reason that Israel is safe are the following:

1. Israel's military is vastly superior to anyone in the ME and would spank all of them if they took off their gloves
2. Saudi Arabia has gotten to the point where they hate Iran more than Israel and the Shia vs. Sunni conflict is getting more priority than the Jew vs. Muslim conflict

Hamas' attack coincided with a meeting that focused on the strengthening of relationship between Saudi Arabia and some of its closely aligned states and Israel.
 
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#21,030
#21,030
PKT_VOL said:
Should we have already divested from the Middle East? Absolutely. We should have done it back in 1967.

However, it is disingenuous to act as if the Middle East would be singing kumbaya sans the US. These tribes have been fighting each other for thousands of years and would continue with or without US involvement.
Click to expand...
My point exactly.
We don’t need to be part of it. We don’t need to be paying for it. And by doing so we obviously don’t make things better.
 
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#21,031
#21,031
volbound1700 said:
We got pulled into the Middle East in the 1790s with Barbary Conflict. We weren't looking for it, but they started it.

People forget that Islam has always been about Global Jihad and Expansion.

They started wars with the Byzantine Empire and Sassanid Persia and overran both. They invaded the Kingdom of the Visigoths in Iberia and took it over. They invaded France but got their butts kicked by Charles Martel at Tours.

They spent almost 1000 years trying to take over Anatolia until the Ottomans finally did it and took Constantinople which lead to brutal Muslim conquest/oppression of the various peoples in the Balkans. They were only stopped at Vienna which they besieged twice.

They have ruthlessly expanded constantly on our ancestors. To the Arab World, America (regardless of how we see ourselves) are still Christian Franks and the enemy.
Click to expand...

Our involvement in the Barbary Conflict was valid and we mostly disengaged afterwards.

I understand the intentions of getting involved post-WWII to secure a nation for the Jews coming off the holocaust in Europe. However, after the USS Liberty attack, that should have permanently ended our involvement with Israel and the Middle East.
 
#21,032
#21,032
KB5252 said:
JMO but I think Israel is playing the long game here. They were on the verge of normalizing relations with the bigger players in the region.

Then 10-7, I think they realized the Iran's of the world would never let that happen so long as they had a wedge to use against them. Hamas and IJ were those wedges.

In their minds they are removing the wedge so it can't be a problem down the road.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't disagree more. I think they are absolutely bungling the long game.

Iran/Hamas's 10/7 attack has been successful beyond their wildest dreams. In the short-term, they struck Israel where it hurts. Something they have not been able to do in a long time. In the long-term, Israel walking into their trap of overreaction has strained Israel's protentional Abraham Accords partnership and cratered Israel's support in the West.

The complete cratering of support and outright hostility of the younger generation across party lines in the US and Europe is particularly concerning to Israel. They are slowly backing themselves into an unsustainable geopolitical corner. Israel has taken Western support, particularly in the US, for granted for long time. They are about a decade away from that support vanishing.
 
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#21,034
#21,034
PKT_VOL said:
I wouldn't disagree more. I think they are absolutely bungling the long game.

Iran/Hamas's 10/7 attack has been successful beyond their wildest dreams. In the short-term, they struck Israel where it hurts. Something they have not been able to do in a long time. In the long-term, Israel walking into their trap of overreaction has strained Israel's protentional Abraham Accords partnership and cratered Israel's support in the West.

The complete cratering of support and outright hostility of the younger generation across party lines in the US and Europe is particularly concerning to Israel. They are slowly backing themselves into an unsustainable geopolitical corner. Israel has taken Western support, particularly in the US, for granted for long time. They are about a decade away from that support vanishing.
Click to expand...
The younger generation here are feckless, they are easily controlled by influence. It's of much more importance 20 years down the road for Israel to have normalized relations with the Sauds and other business minded nations in the area. That's not possible with Hamas and IJ threatening instability.

And they do appear to at least have some cooperation among them despite the War in Gaza.
 
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#21,035
#21,035
NashVol11 said:
Have we seen people show up to pro-Israel protests to start fights, then claiming to be "stabbed in the eye" when nothing happened and parlaying that into a media tour? Have we seen people screeching about how it's Islamophobic that their couscous isn't called Palestinian couscous? Until we do, you can spare me the lazy "both sides" takes
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Couscous? Really? Is this the level that we are at for them to defend their genocide?
 
#21,038
#21,038
hog88 said:
You mean the Israeli territory Israel allowed Hamas and the Palestinian Authority to control?
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We’ve come full circle. You and @LouderVol are back to the crux of the whole argument. Looks to me like Israel are the conquerors and the Palestinians are the conquered. They are both shedding blood over a piece of land that will never return to the Palestinians, even with third party help.
Jmo.
 
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#21,045
#21,045
NurseGoodVol said:
It would have to be more specific for me to make it fighting words. That’s a generalized statement for Twitter warriors, of which there are millions, to get exposure and clicks.
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it is inciting violence..you shouldnt get to say kill people, and everyone knows if some perp commits violence and was influenced by this tweet, dude will go down.
 
#21,046
#21,046
Orangeburst said:
@McDad and @85SugarVol

what yuz say?
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Shouldn’t fear any reprisal from the State for saying that imo.

It’s absurd that they’ll be allowed to continue at Columbia, though.
Change a few group names around, and they’d be out on their ass so fast their head would spin.
 
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#21,047
#21,047
Orangeslice13 said:
Yes. It’s acceptable in a war to kill your enemies if they hide among their people. If they don’t value their people they should not expect anyone else too.
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Yeah, even the Nazis were civilized enough to not billet military units in civilian areas (for the most part). And stationing troops and weapons in HOSPITALS like Hamas does is against very single solitary rule of war. Only history’s very worst savages have stooped to that particular level of depravity.
Even for people who find some sympathy with the plight of the residents of Gaza, it would seem impossible to justify the barbarity of the Hamas soldier. But heaven forbid that an Israeli bomb land 20 meters off target and kill a family with Hamas soldiers hiding in the bedrooms. That is apparently much more sinister 🙄
The sooner the Hamas is defeated, the sooner the war ends. The best way to reduce civilian casualties is to shorten the war. People trying to slow down or pause the Israeli war effort are perversely increasing the civilian death toll.
 
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#21,049
#21,049
PKT_VOL said:
Practically everything since 10/7 has been a strategic disaster for Israel. At every turn, Israel has chosen short-term beneficial actions at the expense of long-term costs.
Click to expand...

As opposed to the US after 9/11 which had the foresight to **** itself in both the short and long term.
 
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