Israel vs Palestinians

[Orangeslice13]

Twisting words and lying by omission there. What a surprise.
It’s like you read just a few minutes ago; Hamas is I directly responsible and Israel is directly responsible for the Palestinian civilians killed by Israel. That means Israel is more responsible, since they’re who intentionally aimed and fired.

Uuuummmm
I’m asking you a question. A clarification on concept free of total numbers and nonsense.
Why can’t you have a conversation with out name calling?
If I’m so evil why do you keep responding?


And again this goes to the heart of the matter. Israel intentionally aimed and fired. If that aim and fire is at Hamas who is hiding behind their own people as shields then would you say that Hamas is 100% responsible for those deaths as they were being used as a tool of Hamas?

Which brings us back to the question, should Israel care about the civilians in Hamas’s care if Hamas does not care for them?

 

[Orangeslice13]

People said this about protests in the '60s being communist. Every protest will have opposition that picks out the worst 5 people and tries to make that the entire story/shut it down as a result. Falling for that isn't "the middle"

Are you saying that violence and out of control behavior has not become a widespread problem during protests?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I truly am sorry you are having this difficulty. I guess from the outside it can look confusing. But Christ was a Jew and the early church leaders, especially Paul, expressed their fervent prayers for their Jewish brethren.
Paul EXPLICITLY deals with this and it is one of the key themes of the book of Romans

Jesus was obviously a Jew. No one is even making that argument. But the majority of Jews in Israel today do not recognize him as the Son of God. Yet, you defend those non-believers because they identify as Jews but ignore their ideology.

God’s promises to Abraham and Jacob were unilateral covenants. They came with no cancellation clauses or expiration date.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob came before Moses. God gave Moses The Law and a new covenant. So that right there blows you entire "no cancellation clauses or expiration date" out of the water. And even in the controversial book of Hebrews, it mentions a new covenant and The Order of Melchizedek.

The covenants are reflections on the character of God, not on the character of His chosen people.

God isn't the one killing women and children in Gaza. It has nothing to do with the character of God. It is all about the charatcer of the Israeli govt.

If you have kids, then you surely understand that they never stop being your kids, even when they disobey you. You may withhold blessings and you may sometimes allow them to suffer the consequences of their poor choices; but they never stop being your kids.

No one is making that argument. The argument is that you all continue to enable your disobedient children.

God‘s promises to Christians are the same. Praise the Lord that God didn’t abandon His promises to me whenever I disobeyed Him!

And when the Jews murdered Christ 2000 years ago, the 2nd Temple was destroyed and the Jews were scattered because they were disobedient.

And one last friendly admonition; if you wish for me to continue to take these discussions seriously, PLEASE stop using the word „genocide“. It is silly and frankly beneath your otherwise well expressed arguments.

Language police. 35k people killed in 7 months is a genocide. Sorry if that makes you feel uncomfortable.

As I have said in multiple posts to many people, of the Israeli Military was really aiming for genocide, you would know it. They could wipe out hundreds of thousands in a single day with absolutely zero risk to their ground forces.

Unfortunately, I think the Israelis are very willing and capable of using tactical nukes to achieve that goal.

Words have meanings and when you misuse one like genocide in this manner you weaken everything else you say.
Peace

Genocide

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Sooooo, if I quoted only one Nazi Leader, say Himmler, would you have said the same? Honest question. Citing one example does not have the automatic inference that everyone EXCEPT that one person is just fine?
Please give us a number of exactly how many examples would suffice to help convince you.

My counter to that would be how many Palestinians need to be killed by the Israelis to qualify it as a genocide? Obviously, 35k isn't enough, so is it 50k? 100k? 1M? All of them? What number in your mind is just a bridge too far?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The internationally accepted rules of warfare are indeed quite clear; combatants are forbidden from using civilians to shield themselves from attack.

The US and Israel do not recognize international norms... we make up our own rules. Second, you would think the most moral military in the world would recognize these alleged human shield situations and go out of their way to not indiscriminately bomb civilian targets anyways.

Again, the Israelis have killed more civilians in 7 months than the Russians have in 2 plus years... yet the Russians are the baddies.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

View attachment 637160

Replace keffiyeh with kippah in that meme and then tell me which one would be considered hate speach.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

People said this about protests in the '60s being communist. Every protest will have opposition that picks out the worst 5 people and tries to make that the entire story/shut it down as a result. Falling for that isn't "the middle"

I'm beggining to think that some of these clowns, even knowing what we know now about the Vietnam War, would still oppose war protesters in the 1960s if they were to go back in time.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

People said this about protests in the '60s being communist. Every protest will have opposition that picks out the worst 5 people and tries to make that the entire story/shut it down as a result. Falling for that isn't "the middle"

In the 1960s, you were communist.
Today, you are Hamas.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Are you saying that violence and out of control behavior has not become a widespread problem during protests?

When ANTIFA and BLM were burning cities in 2020, you didn't see anywhere near the level of police action or political condemnation. That is because those riots served a purpose for the powers that be.

But for these "mostly peacesful" protests, we have police being aggressive and politicians wanting to attack the 1st amendment rights of people to speak and freely assemble.

And then, to even add more nonsense to the mix, you have grandmas walking through velvet ropes and people taking selfies in the Capital after being let in and they are called insurrectionists.

If your azz can't see the jumbled up hypocrisy of all these things and not realize you are being played, then there is no hope for you. January 6 and college protesters are the enemy of the US, but BLM and ANTIFA burning down cities are OK.

You are a useful idiot if you cannot see what is going on.

 

[EasternVol]

Uuuummmm
I’m asking you a question. A clarification on concept free of total numbers and nonsense.
Why can’t you have a conversation with out name calling?
If I’m so evil why do you keep responding?


And again this goes to the heart of the matter. Israel intentionally aimed and fired. If that aim and fire is at Hamas who is hiding behind their own people as shields then would you say that Hamas is 100% responsible for those deaths as they were being used as a tool of Hamas?

Which brings us back to the question, should Israel care about the civilians in Hamas’s care if Hamas does not care for them?

It doesn't look like the aiming and firing is necessarily directed at hamas. The priority seems to be systematic destruction of Gaza as a habitable environment. As noted twice just now, Israel is primarily responsible for the civilian deaths, injuries, and loss of habitation. They're the party actively doing the killing and maiming and knocking down housing with the residents inside. You can be like a four year old and try to blame the dog for the lamp you broke but everybody knows you knocked it over.
Yes Israel should care about 'the civilians in Hamas' care even if Hamas does not care for them'.

 

[Orangeslice13]

When ANTIFA and BLM were burning cities in 2020, you didn't see anywhere near the level of police action or political condemnation. That is because those riots served a purpose for the powers that be.

But for these "mostly peacesful" protests, we have police being aggressive and politicians wanting to attack the 1st amendment rights of people to speak and freely assemble.

And then, to even add more nonsense to the mix, you have grandmas walking through velvet ropes and people taking selfies in the Capital after being let in and they are called insurrectionists.

If your azz can't see the jumbled up hypocrisy of all these things and not realize you are being played, then there is no hope for you. January 6 and college protesters are the enemy of the US, but BLM and ANTIFA burning down cities are OK.

You are a useful idiot if you cannot see what is going on.

Nice speech complete with cry and name calling.
So then there has or has not been a violence component to protests?

And BTW. The 1st amendment “peaceful assembly” doesn’t negotiate my rights to ignore dipshits and peaceful go about my business free of harassment from stupid people who don’t actually understand what they are protesting.

It seems that the opinions of people on these protests change depending on which side they are on at any given moment

 

[Orangeslice13]

It doesn't look like the aiming and firing is necessarily directed at hamas. The priority seems to be systematic destruction of Gaza as a habitable environment. As noted twice just now, Israel is primarily responsible for the civilian deaths, injuries, and loss of habitation. They're the party actively doing the killing and maiming and knocking down housing with the residents inside. You can be like a four year old and try to blame the dog for the lamp you broke but everybody knows you knocked it over.
Yes Israel should care about 'the civilians in Hamas' care even if Hamas does not care for them'.

Optics are important. It appears that Israel is not shooting at Hamas but to be fair Hamas is not only hiding behind the civilians they intentionally dress and look the part of civilians. So nobody really knows who or what is being shot (civilians vs enemy combatants) so it’s going to have a negative optic no matter what the battle plan. But not really what we’re talking about.
We’re talking about actions during war. And at the end you make a point that I clearly disagree with. I do not believe that any military in that situation should value the lives of civilians being used as shields over the objective of elimination of the enemy.
I don’t see how a war can be effectively fought if you’re not willing to engage the enemy wherever they are without exception.

 

[EasternVol]

I'm beggining to think that some of these clowns, even knowing what we know now about the Vietnam War, would still oppose war protesters in the 1960s if they were to go back in time.

They'd go back to join the Chicago PD and get 1968 Democratic National Convention duty.

 

[NashVol11]

I'm beggining to think that some of these clowns, even knowing what we know now about the Vietnam War, would still oppose war protesters in the 1960s if they were to go back in time.

Beginning to think? They 100% would. Same people who will talk up MLK to their kids when they'd be calling him a woke troublemaker (likely much worse) were he protesting today

 

[NashVol11]

Are you saying that violence and out of control behavior has not become a widespread problem during protests?

Could argue that either way - depends whether you view the beatings by police, firing of rubber bullets by police, tear gas, and police batons as commonplace enough to be a "widespread problem"

 

[Orangeslice13]

Could argue that either way - depends whether you view the beatings by police, firing of rubber bullets by police, tear gas, and police batons as commonplace enough to be a "widespread problem"

We can talk about that if you want, I’m no fan of the police, but I was asking you to clarify. You seemed to be saying that the (in this case) antisemitic chants were rare or not happening.
My position is that everyDamnBody has lost their minds in today’s protests. It doesn’t matter the side or issue. It seems that in the last couple years, if there’s a protest there’s going to be a counter protest and then a fight. Then the tribes argue who’s fault it is

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Nice speech complete with cry and name calling.

Sir, you have no authority to be talking about crying in this thread. No one has bled more in this thread than you, sir.

So then there has or has not been a violence component to protests?

I'm sure there have been incidences of violence on both sides. But again, compare/contrast the violence in these protests to the violence in 2020 protests.

And BTW. The 1st amendment “peaceful assembly” doesn’t negotiate my rights to ignore dipshits and peaceful go about my business free of harassment from stupid people who don’t actually understand what they are protesting.

Neither is my 1st Amendment right dependent on who agrees or disagrees with what I may say. You actually had Mike Johnson yesterday say that since Hamas agrees with the student protests, that it means that these students need to have their 1st Amendment rights violated. In other words, I have 1st Amendment rights as long as someone that the govt doesn't agree with isn't supporting them...

It seems that the opinions of people on these protests change depending on which side they are on at any given moment

Well as I've said earlier, you have a mixture of people joining these protests. Some are genuine and some are not. I don't see what difference it makes because this hapens in all protests. People jump on and off bandwagons for multiple reasons.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Optics are important. It appears that Israel is not shooting at Hamas but to be fair Hamas is not only hiding behind the civilians they intentionally dress and look the part of civilians. So nobody really knows who or what is being shot (civilians vs enemy combatants) so it’s going to have a negative optic no matter what the battle plan. But not really what we’re talking about.
We’re talking about actions during war. And at the end you make a point that I clearly disagree with. I do not believe that any military in that situation should value the lives of civilians being used as shields over the objective of elimination of the enemy.
I don’t see how a war can be effectively fought if you’re not willing to engage the enemy wherever they are without exception.

Then why shoot at all? If you are not sure of the target and you shoot anyways, that makes you a criminal.

 

[just bob]

I too think it’s humorous that people want to blame Israel for fighting the enemy where the enemy is.

What could have cleared this up is if Israel caved to the pressure and gave Muslims land, let's called it a strip of land, and removed themselves from this land allowing the Muslims to govern themselves in it.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

What could have cleared this up is if Israel caved to the pressure and gave Muslims land, let's called it a strip of land, and removed themselves from this land allowing the Muslims to govern themselves in it.

Let's keep in mind that all Palestinians are not Muslims.

 

[just bob]

Let's keep in mind that all Pallestinians are not Muslims.

Are you aware of the percentage? Also, do you think "the rest" support Hamas and the terrorists like the Muslims overwhelmingly do?

 

[Orangeslice13]

I'm sure there have been incidences of violence on both sides. But again, compare/contrast the violence in these protests to the violence in 2020 protests.


Neither is my 1st Amendment right dependent on who agrees or disagrees with what I may say. You actually had Mike Johnson yesterday say that since Hamas agrees with the student protests, that it means that these students need to have their 1st Amendment rights violated. In other words, I have 1st Amendment rights as long as someone that the govt doesn't agree with isn't supporting them...


Well as I've said earelier, you have a mixture of people joining these protests. Some are genuine and some are not. I don't see what difference it makes because this hapens in all protests. People jump on and off bandwagons for multiple reasons.

-I don’t give 2 ***** about your perceived tribal identity politics
-good for him.
Not relevant to my point that your/my right to protest doesn’t negate my/your right to ignore it.
-my point was to clarify, he appeared to be saying one side only had a slim few “bad apples “. I take exception with that as the “protest” seems to be gone and replaced with the “riot” and nobody appears to have the high ground.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Then why shoot at all? If you are not sure of the target and you shoot anyways, that makes you a criminal.

Because they have declared war and are committed to never being attacked by Hamas again. You don’t like what the Hamas tactics have caused then maybe you should call them out.

You could always call the war police because they clearly don’t care if you think they’re criminals.

 

[Orangeslice13]

What could have cleared this up is if Israel caved to the pressure and gave Muslims land, let's called it a strip of land, and removed themselves from this land allowing the Muslims to govern themselves in it.

You mean like since 2005 where Hamas has been in charge and used the time to build weapons but no infrastructure before attacking the people they rely on for food and water

 

[just bob]

You mean like since 2005 where Hamas has been in charge and used the time to build weapons but no infrastructure before attacking the people they rely on for food and water

Yes. lol