It is a real shame that

#51
#51
The only part I take exception to is the last. Rumsfeld had a lot more influence than he reports in his memoirs and had a hand in this decision, as did Cheney. Powell was truly the odd man out in Bush's circle of advisors, but Rumsfeld owns a large piece of the blame for the early mistakes.

I agree that Powell was the odd man out; however, it is because he did not agree with the others, yet went along with their decisions, anyway. Bremer, came from State, and Powell should have been more involved in his oversight. Or, if he saw that he could not and, also, that he disagreed with the strategy, he should have handed in his resignation (hell, Rumsfeld offered his resignation on three different occasions during his second tenure as SecDef).

If one thinks that Powell is a great leader, then he certainly failed to show that leadership throughout his time as Secretary of State with regard to the War in Iraq.
 
#52
#52
In April 2004, I suggested to Bremer that he put together a strategy designed to "change the mindset of disenfranchisement and hopelessness" among the Sunnis. Senior military officers and I had been concerned for over a year that the Sunni tribes were being neglected, but we had found a less than receptive ear at the CPA. The Sunni outreach I outlined included easing up on de-Baathification efforts by moving Adhmad Chalabi out of the process. I urged Bremer to focus on "labor-intensive projects in Sunni areas" and those near moderate Sunni mosques. I also asked him to build ties to Iraq's Sunni tribes through regular visits with their leaders...

But Bremer was not inclined to work through the tribes. Despite his agreement to turn over sovereignty by June, it remained difficult to get him to accept the idea that Iraq belonged to the Iraqis, and that the Iraqis were entitled to their own culture and institution.

Known and Unknown p. 536

Rumsfeld to Bremer, "Sunni Outreach," April 12, 2004
Glen D. Shaffer, Director for Intelligence (J-2) to Myers et al., "The Importance of the Tribes in Post-Saddam Iraq," April 8, 2003.

Rumsfeld had little-to-no operational control of Bremer or the CPA. Again, DoD was the landowner, but Bremer and the CPA were State entities.
 
#53
#53
I agree that Powell was the odd man out; however, it is because he did not agree with the others, yet went along with their decisions, anyway. Bremer, came from State, and Powell should have been more involved in his oversight. Or, if he saw that he could not and, also, that he disagreed with the strategy, he should have handed in his resignation (hell, Rumsfeld offered his resignation on three different occasions during his second tenure as SecDef).

If one thinks that Powell is a great leader, then he certainly failed to show that leadership throughout his time as Secretary of State with regard to the War in Iraq.

I agree with all of that, as well as your assessment of Powell. But, I think he was the odd man out because he wasn't part of the Bush I team, the way the others were. But, he does bear responsibility for not stepping up and forcefully fighting against those things that he saw wrong.

But, I have more personal issues with Rumsfeld--mainly due to having to deal with the confusion of the detainee issue first hand, as well as other experiences with him in Afghanistan.

On one hand Powell made errors in omission, whereas Rumsfeld's were errors of commission, many of them deliberate. The entire team screwed up the Afghanistan mission first, then turned their attention to Iraq at the detriment of both. Only when they conceded their mistakes (never publicly) and allowed us (mainly the Army and CENTCOM) to fix the problems they created did we finally turn the corner in Iraq.

But then the Obama team started to pile on Afghanistan and have nearly pulled defeat from the jaws of success.
 
#54
#54
Rumsfeld had little-to-no operational control of Bremer or the CPA. Again, DoD was the landowner, but Bremer and the CPA were State entities.

Rumsfeld talked to Bremer daily, often multiple times. His memoirs are very skewed to shift blame and maintain his reputation. Lots of salt needed when reading...
 
#56
#56
I agree with all of that, as well as your assessment of Powell. But, I think he was the odd man out because he wasn't part of the Bush I team, the way the others were. But, he does bear responsibility for not stepping up and forcefully fighting against those things that he saw wrong.

But, I have more personal issues with Rumsfeld--mainly due to having to deal with the confusion of the detainee issue first hand, as well as other experiences with him in Afghanistan.

On one hand Powell made errors in omission, whereas Rumsfeld's were errors of commission, many of them deliberate. The entire team screwed up the Afghanistan mission first, then turned their attention to Iraq at the detriment of both. Only when they conceded their mistakes (never publicly) and allowed us (mainly the Army and CENTCOM) to fix the problems they created did we finally turn the corner in Iraq.

But then the Obama team started to pile on Afghanistan and have nearly pulled defeat from the jaws of success.

I have no desire to give Rumsfeld a pass; I just think Powell, Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, and Rice all belong in the same boat.
 
#57
#57
TRUT , you do not believe that :


1. The DOD was the architects of the de-Ba'athification policy in Iraq.


2. The State Department and the CIA challenged the implementation of the de- Ba'athification policy in Iraq.
 
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#58
#58
TRUT , you do not believe that :


1. The DOD was the architects of the de-Ba'athification policy in Iraq.

I believe that the DoD approved of getting rid of the highest level Baathists, the true ideologues; I do not believe for a second that the DoD supported removing any and everyone who had ever swore a loyalty oath to the Baath Party.

2. The State Department and the CIA challenged the implementation of the de- Ba'athification policy in Iraq.

The DoD, to include the Rumsfeld, the Army, and the Marine Corps, challenged the implementation of Bremer's de-Baathification, as well.

Rumsfeld is not a good guy (neither is Powell); however, his memoir is chalk full of citations that refer to official memos, orders, and minutes of meetings to support his position. His memoir has been vetted and fact-checked, and neither Bremer nor Powell has come forward to substantially counter the claims that Rumsfeld made. That said, here is what Rumsfeld says regarding Bremer and who Bremer, by position, was supposed to report to:

Overall, the State Department was filling less than 40 percent of the slots it was slated to fill on the governance teams...I asked the director of administration at the Pentagon, Raymond DuBois, to coordinate financial and personnel support to the CPA. He became so frustrated with the State's lack of cooperation that he personally canvassed the retired Foreign Service officer community for volunteers.

In order to get up to speed, I encouraged Bremer to work closely with Garner...But Bremer seemed not to want much assistance from those who had been engaged in Iraq before he arrived. he was eager to send Garner back to America and excluded him from key meetings during their transition...

Bremer refused to meet with the four-star commander of Joint Forces Command, Admiral Ed Giambastiani, when he was in Iraq working on a lessons-learned project, which proved to be a valuable assessment of what actually took place in the days after Saddam's ouster.

Most troubling was that Bremer proved reluctant to cede any significant authority to the Iraqis. In his memoir he noted that several weeks before he arrived in Baghdad he heard on the radio that "Jay Garner had announced his intention to appoint an Iraqi government by May 15." Upon hearing the news, Bremer wrote, "I almost drove off the George Washington Parkway." Garner's plan, in fact, would have consisted of a group of Iraqis advising the CPA, not a total handover of authority. Through political conferences in the Iraqi cities of Nasiriyah and Baghdad, Garner has skillfully cultivated leaders for the new Iraq, among internals as well as externals. He also had ensured there was an Iraqi presence in each of the country's twenty-three ministries. When Bremer departed for Baghdad, I believed he would work with Garner to build on this momentum...

At the State Department's insistence, I reluctantly had agreed to a month or so delay in implementing the Iraqi Interim Authority when the policy was established in March. I agreed that Bremer needed a chance to find his footing in Baghdad....Bush, at least in my presence, never wavered in his desire to turn power over to the Iraqis as quickly as possible. Then again, he never firmly resisted the State Department's efforts to slow the timeline either. This ambiguity may have been just enough for Bremer to decide he had Bush's support for the delay...

For at least the first month of his tenure, in fact, Bremer continued to report back to me and Defense officials that he was implementing the President's plan to create an interim Iraqi government as soon as possible...

By July, however, Bremer, echoing Colin Powell, apparently had concluded that a power-sharing arrangement between the coalition and Iraqis would not work. He asserted that there could only be one government at a time--the CPA or an Iraqi one, but not both...

Bremer's arrival marked an unfortunate psychological change in Iraq--from a sense of liberation, with gratitude owed to the American military and our allies, to a growing sense of frustration and resentment that Iraq had come under the rule of an American occupation authority.

pp.509-513

Bremer was a State entity who took his direction from State (Powell) and the POTUS. As Secretary of State, the head of the Department of State, Powell was responsible for everything his department did or failed to do. His lack of involvement is on him.
 
#59
#59
and his route to those positions was questionable. His "command experience" was questionable at best. His command persona doesn't exist and he was a fence sitter from the word go. He's a perfect political general, but isn't the guy to be in charge. Isn't ever going to be. He's a staff guy and organizer. I want command style leadership for a job, I'm not calling Powell.

He would certainly meet Joe Biden's qualifications for leadership, "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." Out of the mouth of a room temperature IQ politician!
 
#60
#60
I believe that the DoD approved of getting rid of the highest level Baathists, the true ideologues; I do not believe for a second that the DoD supported removing any and everyone who had ever swore a loyalty oath to the Baath Party.



The DoD, to include the Rumsfeld, the Army, and the Marine Corps, challenged the implementation of Bremer's de-
Baathification, as well.

Rumsfeld is not a good guy (neither is
Powell); however, his memoir is chalk full of citations that refer to official memos, orders, and minutes of meetings to support his position. His memoir has been vetted and fact-checked, and neither Bremer nor Powell has come forward to substantially counter the claims that Rumsfeld made. That said, here is what Rumsfeld says regarding Bremer and who Bremer, by position, was supposed to report to:



Bremer was a State entity who took his direction from State (Powell) and the POTUS. As Secretary of State, the head of the

Department of State, Powell was responsible for everything his department did or failed to do. His lack of involvement is on him.

The National Security Presidential Directive says otherwise.
 
#61
#61
President?

I wouldn't vote for Colin Powell as dogcatcher.

I have no clue why anyone would want him a president.

I will be surprised if he doesn't endorse Obama.

In his recent interviews he has almost gone that far alreadey.
 
#62
#62
President?

I wouldn't vote for Colin Powell as dogcatcher.

I have no clue why anyone would want him a president.

I will be surprised if he doesn't endorse Obama.

In his recent interviews he has almost gone that far alreadey.

You're talking about a member of the most monolithic voting group in the nation. To paraphrase Edwin Edwards, the only way Obama doesn't get 95% of the black vote is if he's caught in bed with a dead girl or live boy.

And if he is, he gets 94%.
 
#63
#63
I have never understood the Republican fascination with Powell. He is pro-Affirmative Action, pro-choice, pro-gun control, and pro-same sex marriage. That is, he is neither fiscally conservative (Affirmative Action is absolutely opposed to free-market capitalism) nor socially conservative. Could someone please explain what the attraction is?
 
#65
#65
I have never understood the Republican fascination with Powell. He is pro-Affirmative Action, pro-choice, pro-gun control, and pro-same sex marriage. That is, he is neither fiscally conservative (Affirmative Action is absolutely opposed to free-market capitalism) nor socially conservative. Could someone please explain what the attraction is?

The Republicans have not been fascinated with Gen Powell since sometime in the fall of 2008.
 
#75
#75
None of that stuff magically changed then, Republicans only hated him when he got Obama cooties.

that isn't true. Military folk hated him for being a politician rather than soldier. Repubs hated the reason he decided to back Obama.
 

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