Jon Gruden thread (merged)

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#1,953
#1,953
GreveHaller said:
Here's my 2 cents

When the talk of Gruden came up years ago, like everyone else I was interested and excited. Here's a guy that won a SB so lets bring him to the Hill to coach. So I started looking at his resume. Of course there's the SB and its glaring. There's no doubt that its special and no one can take it away. Backed into it or not he's got it.

I then looked at his past. When he worked in the college ranks he was a position coach. That's all. No coordinator position. Doesnt give me a good feeling.

Then I see that the last time he was active in college football was 21 years ago. IMO, huge red flag. Unlike the NFL where players are either drafted or picked up on FA, you must actively go out and be a sales man for kids to come to the school. There's alot of change in 21 years and you have to know how to court those kids as well as the specific guidelines for recruiting those kids or you'll be in deep doo-doo. One slip up and the NCAA will sanction the s__t out of you. I just feel all those years away from college add to his learning curve of college football. Not a good fit for us.

I then started looking at his NFL resume as a coach. Before he got to Oak they were 4-12. He begins to build. 8-8, 8-8, 12-4, 10-6. Not shabby work. Then he's traded to TB. Not a quit or a firing - a trade. Why - because the owner wanted a more vertical passing attack and not the hortizontal pass attach Gruden used Plus Oak got two 1st round picks and $8mill. That's the owners call. And the immediate benefit was TB who in that first year won their SB. Not sure if that offensive mind set will work for us or in the SEC.

Then there's the next 6 seasons. 45-51. Only 2 playoff appearences losing both in the wild card game. Big red flag. If he was such a great coach then his record should have been much better than .500. Remove the SB and I'm not ready to say he's an elite coach.

So there's the SB win and the building up of Oak.

On the other hand
*there's no cfb coaching experience (hc or coordinator)
*a tremendously long period since coaching in college
*no coordinator experience
*21 yrs since he recruited
*a offensive philosophy of hortizonal instead of vertical passing (I dont think this will work in the SEC)
*a sub .500 record after winning a big title
*has been out of coaching since 2009.

There's too many negatives for me to back him.

Could Gruden be a good cfb coach? Absolutely. In fact any coach can. Classic example is Gene Stallings at Bama who was an aweful HC for Arizona yet excelled at Bama. Does it mean he will or wont? no.
Could he recruit players? Well sure. He starts with a name but at some point he's got to win or his name means nothing.

I just dont believe that we the Vols are despreate enough now to make a huge investment into a coach that has that much of a risk. There are alot of coaches out there that have experience and are proven. We dont need another Al Davis reject.

Yet.
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Thanks Greve, so far the arguments against seem more logical than the arguments for, but then again, I haven't seen the proponents lay it out in this sort of detail.
 
#1,956
#1,956
YorkVol said:
Thanks Greve, so far the arguments against seem more logical than the arguments for, but then again, I haven't seen the proponents lay it out in this sort of detail.
Click to expand...

Apparently, you have to watch some HBO documentary on Gruden, before you understand his greatness.
 
#1,958
#1,958
g8terh8ter_eric said:
A great front office, that gives you Issac Bruce, Tory Holt, Marshall Faulk, and lucks out on a bag-boy for a QB can do that. You got 3 HOF's on offense, and they are most definitely one of the exceptions that didn't win on defensive prowess.
Click to expand...

So for Vermiel it was a GOOD front office? Yet for Gruden your not willing to consider the idea of Tampa having a BAD front office? Quit talking out of your ass. An opinion is one thing, but your attempts to discredit Gruden's worth are becoming stale and rather obnoxious.
 
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#1,959
#1,959
RichRollin said:
So for Vermiel it was a GOOD front office? Yet for Gruden your not willing to consider the idea of Tampa having a BAD front office? Quit talking out of both sides of your ass. An opinion is one thing, but your attempts to discredit Gruden's worth are becoming stale and rather obnoxious.
Click to expand...

The Glazer's are terrible owners, and had it not been for Dungy working to solidify that team before Gruden got there, they would have sucked pretty bad. Gruden had a losing record as a coach, after he won the Super Bowl, and never made it past the Wild Card game in the playoffs, when they did get there. Other than a name, and a Super Bowl title he achieved with the help of Dungy building up the team before he left, Gruden is a very average coach, no matter what an HBO special may say about him. If you are going to discredit what I say, at least have some substance with your argument.
 
#1,962
#1,962
GreveHaller said:
Here's my 2 cents

When the talk of Gruden came up years ago, like everyone else I was interested and excited. Here's a guy that won a SB so lets bring him to the Hill to coach. So I started looking at his resume. Of course there's the SB and its glaring. There's no doubt that its special and no one can take it away. Backed into it or not he's got it.

I then looked at his past. When he worked in the college ranks he was a position coach. That's all. No coordinator position. Doesnt give me a good feeling.

Then I see that the last time he was active in college football was 21 years ago. IMO, huge red flag. Unlike the NFL where players are either drafted or picked up on FA, you must actively go out and be a sales man for kids to come to the school. There's alot of change in 21 years and you have to know how to court those kids as well as the specific guidelines for recruiting those kids or you'll be in deep doo-doo. One slip up and the NCAA will sanction the s__t out of you. I just feel all those years away from college add to his learning curve of college football. Not a good fit for us.

I then started looking at his NFL resume as a coach. Before he got to Oak they were 4-12. He begins to build. 8-8, 8-8, 12-4, 10-6. Not shabby work. Then he's traded to TB. Not a quit or a firing - a trade. Why - because the owner wanted a more vertical passing attack and not the hortizontal pass attach Gruden used Plus Oak got two 1st round picks and $8mill. That's the owners call. And the immediate benefit was TB who in that first year won their SB. Not sure if that offensive mind set will work for us or in the SEC.

Then there's the next 6 seasons. 45-51. Only 2 playoff appearences losing both in the wild card game. Big red flag. If he was such a great coach then his record should have been much better than .500. Remove the SB and I'm not ready to say he's an elite coach.

So there's the SB win and the building up of Oak.

On the other hand
*there's no cfb coaching experience (hc or coordinator)
*a tremendously long period since coaching in college
*no coordinator experience
*21 yrs since he recruited
*a offensive philosophy of hortizonal instead of vertical passing (I dont think this will work in the SEC)
*a sub .500 record after winning a big title
*has been out of coaching since 2009.

There's too many negatives for me to back him.

Could Gruden be a good cfb coach? Absolutely. In fact any coach can. Classic example is Gene Stallings at Bama who was an aweful HC for Arizona yet excelled at Bama. Does it mean he will or wont? no.
Could he recruit players? Well sure. He starts with a name but at some point he's got to win or his name means nothing.

I just dont believe that we the Vols are despreate enough now to make a huge investment into a coach that has that much of a risk. There are alot of coaches out there that have experience and are proven. We dont need another Al Davis reject.

Yet.
Click to expand...

You realize our current coach was never a coordinator either, right?

I see little to no risk, and Al Davis rejecting you is a positive, not a negative.
 
#1,964
#1,964
g8terh8ter_eric said:
The Glazer's are terrible owners, and had it not been for Dungy working to solidify that team before Gruden got there, they would have sucked pretty bad. Gruden had a losing record as a coach, after he won the Super Bowl, and never made it past the Wild Card game in the playoffs, when they did get there. Other than a name, and a Super Bowl title he achieved with the help of Dungy building up the team before he left, Gruden is a very average coach, no matter what an HBO special may say about him. If you are going to discredit what I say, at least have some substance with your argument.
Click to expand...

Look at the team Gruden beat in the Super Bowl and ask yourself who built them.

An average coach doesn't take two teams to their respective conference title games, much less win a Super Bowl with Brad Johnson at QB.

An average coach doesn't have a winning record overall as an NFL HC.

Look at where Gruden came from. He worked under Bill Walsh and Holmgren, alongside Mariucci and Reid. You aren't "average" when you work on a staff with those guys.

It's mind boggling that anyone can say Gruden isn't the best available HC today. I don't understand it. College quarterbacks beg him to critique them before the draft. He won while working under Al Davis (who's the last coach to do that?) He's one of the most respected offensive minds in the game.

To ignore that because a defense got old and he was working for one of the worst owners in all of the NFL is absurd.
 
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#1,967
#1,967
g8terh8ter_eric said:
The Glazer's are terrible owners, and had it not been for Dungy working to solidify that team before Gruden got there, they would have sucked pretty bad. Gruden had a losing record as a coach, after he won the Super Bowl, and never made it past the Wild Card game in the playoffs, when they did get there. Other than a name, and a Super Bowl title he achieved with the help of Dungy building up the team before he left, Gruden is a very average coach, no matter what an HBO special may say about him. If you are going to discredit what I say, at least have some substance with your argument.
Click to expand...

LOL! You CONTINUE to say he won with Dungy's guys. If Dungy was so great why didn't he get it done? And according to your theory Dungy one his SB with Jim Mora SR's guys. Since Mora was so great let's crown him with Dungy's SB. You continue to point at Gruden's record after the SB but totally ignore the fact that he did win the SB. He took over the Raiders they were in shambles, he built them to a SB team. You do the same thing with Fulmer, look at the bad years but totally ignore the years that made him a Hall of Famer. Tampa's offense might not have been the best, but IMO Gruden's impact on them was actually what got them over the hump. Say what you want, but that offense played lights out during the playoffs that year. If you are gonna look at his worst years and totally ignore his good ones how can you expect anyone to take anything you say serious? All this points to one thing, you want Charlie Strong. That's fine as I think Strong is solid. And just who built the team Gruden beat in the SB? There is no need for me to discredit you as you are doing it to yourself.
 
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#1,968
#1,968
justingroves said:
Look at the team Gruden beat in the Super Bowl and ask yourself who built them.

An average coach doesn't take two teams to their respective conference title games, much less win a Super Bowl with Brad Johnson at QB.

An average coach doesn't have a winning record overall as an NFL HC.

Look at where Gruden came from. He worked under Bill Walsh and Holmgren, alongside Mariucci and Reid. You aren't "average" when you work on a staff with those guys.

It's mind boggling that anyone can say Gruden isn't the best available HC today. I don't understand it. College quarterbacks beg him to critique them before the draft. He won while working under Al Davis (who's the last coach to do that?) He's one of the most respected offensive minds in the game.

To ignore that because a defense got old and he was working for one of the worst owners in all of the NFL is absurd.
Click to expand...


Good post.
 
#1,973
#1,973
BTW, I heard Arkansas is going after Baylor's coach, Art Briles. Why wouldn't the fanbase be going gaga over a currently employed and successful HC instead of an out of work one with marginal success?
 
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#1,974
#1,974
YorkVol said:
BTW, I heard Arkansas is going after Baylor's coach, Art Briles. Why wouldn't the fanbase be going gaga over a currently employed and successful HC instead of an out of work one with marginal success?
Click to expand...

We're too nice to kiffen some other fan base.
 
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