JP Prince to workout for Knicks

#101
#101
LawVol13 said:
I'm with BPV. The Bulls didn't win until they got some posts to battle in the paint. I don't buy the "Jordan learned to lean on his teammates" crap either. It's not like Jordan's scoring average went down, or he was passing it off to Kukoc for buzzer beaters.
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Let me get this straight. The difference in the Bulls winning their titles was getting Luc Longley-Bill Cartwright and not Scottie Pippen? Give me a break.

It's not as if this isn't well documented, either. Hell, Jordan himself has repeatedly said learning to trust his teammates was a key in their run.

Plus, yes, his scoring average did go down (37 & 35 in '87,'88 to low 30s and high 20s). And, I seem to remember him passing to guys like Paxson and Kerr late in key moments during the NBA Finals. Game 5 in 1991? Game 6 in 1997?
 
#102
#102
Unimane said:
Let me get this straight. The difference in the Bulls winning their titles was getting Luc Longley-Bill Cartwright and not Scottie Pippen? Give me a break.

It's not as if this isn't well documented, either. Hell, Jordan himself has repeatedly said learning to trust his teammates was a key in their run.

Plus, yes, his scoring average did go down (37 & 35 in '87,'88 to low 30s and high 20s). And, I seem to remember him passing to guys like Paxson and Kerr late in key moments during the NBA Finals. Game 5 in 1991? Game 6 in 1997?
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Yea, look how the Bulls dominated the Pistons with Jordan and Pippen in '89 and '90... Oh wait.

And his scoring average went down by about a bucket a game. He averaged 30+ every single year besides the comeback year and '97 and '98 as he was getting a little older.
 
#103
#103
LawVol13 said:
Yea, look how the Bulls dominated the Pistons with Jordan and Pippen in '89 and '90... Oh wait.

And his scoring average went down by about a bucket a game. He averaged 30+ every single year besides the comeback year and '97 and '98 as he was getting a little older.
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Hmm, let's take a look at the raw data.

1st Point-Pippen's Arrival

Before Pippen ('85, '86, '87)
-Two 8 seeds and one 7 seed, 1-9 playoff record

*Pippen drafted in 1987

After Pippen
'88 - Three seed, advance to second round
'89 - Six seed, advance to Conference Finals
'90 - Three seed, advance to Conference Finals

Three years after Pippen, 23 playoff wins.

See a correlation there? No, the Bulls weren't able to overtake the Pistons immediately, but Pippen's arrival clearly changed the team. When Jordan and Pippen matured into veterans, they disposed or the Pistons.

2nd Point - Jordan's Scoring

Going from 37 and 35 a game to low 30s does correlate to the idea of including his team more than previously (36 PPG to 31.9 PPG). Jordan was obviously going to score, but he learned he couldn't do it on his own and the stats reflect this.

On the other hand, you could have just watched him in the 80s and 90s as I did when the point was readily apparent.
 
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#104
#104
Unimane said:
Hmm, let's take a look at the raw data to show just how wrong you are.

1st Point-Pippen's Arrival

Before Pippen ('85, '86, '87)
-Two 8 seeds and one 7 seed, 1-9 playoff record

*Pippen drafted in 1987

After Pippen
'88 - Three seed, advance to second round
'89 - Six seed, advance to Conference Finals
'90 - Three seed, advance to Conference Finals

Three years after Pippen, 23 playoff wins.

See a correlation there? No, the Bulls weren't able to overtake the Pistons immediately, but Pippen's arrival clearly changed the team. When Jordan and Pippen matured into veterans, they disposed or the Pistons.

2nd Point - Jordan's Scoring

Going from 37 and 35 a game to low 30s does correlate to the idea of including his team more than previously.

On the other hand, you could have just watched him in the 80s and 90s as I did when the point was readily apparent.
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Look, I'm not arguing that Pippen didn't help the team. He's the reason Jordan's ppg dropped marginally and was a crucial part of the 6 rings. However, clearly, he wasn't enough. That's the point. Until they got more physical in the paint, they did not start winning rings.
 
#105
#105
LawVol13 said:
Look, I'm not arguing that Pippen didn't help the team. He's the reason Jordan's ppg dropped marginally and was a crucial part of the 6 rings. However, clearly, he wasn't enough. That's the point. Until they got more physical in the paint, they did not start winning rings.
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Well, if you're arguing would they have won with Dave Corzine in the middle, maybe not. Were they winning with Paul Mokeski or some other softie? Doubtful.

However, they were absolutely, positively not winning without Pippen and it's not a coincidence that their results changed immediately upon his arrival, then got progressively better as Pippen and Jordan matured the next couple of years. The posts were filler in both sets of threepeats. However, bridging the two championship runs were the only two players on all six title teams, Jordan and Pippen.

So, yeah, getting a post presence was important, as was getting BJ Armstrong, Kerr, Paxson and Craig Hodges to spot up on the drive and pop. But, obviously, being physical in the paint was not the "difference".
 
#106
#106
Unimane said:
Well, if you're arguing would they have won with Dave Corzine in the middle, maybe not. Were they winning with Paul Mokeski or some other softie? Doubtful.

However, they were absolutely, positively not winning without Pippen and it's not a coincidence that their results changed immediately upon his arrival, then got progressively better as Pippen and Jordan matured the next couple of years. The posts were filler in both sets of threepeats. However, bridging the two championship runs were the only two players on all six title teams, Jordan and Pippen.

So, yeah, getting a post presence was important, as was getting BJ Armstrong, Kerr, Paxson and Craig Hodges to spot up on the drive and pop. But, obviously, being physical in the paint was not the "difference".
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We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think Rodman was a critical part of the last threepeat, and that was because he was physical. And I truly don't think they win the other threepeat without the addition of some physical posts even though they had Pippen.
 
#107
#107
LawVol13 said:
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think Rodman was a critical part of the last threepeat, and that was because he was physical. And I truly don't think they win the other threepeat without the addition of some physical posts even though they had Pippen.
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But, you are talking about components that teams need as opposed to the actual difference in winning championships. You need a shooter to stretch the defense, but it's not the difference in winning titles. Charles Oakley, like Rodman, led the NBA in rebounding in '87 and '88, so it wasn't as if the Bulls were overly soft in the middle. Getting a legit big man was key, but they weren't winning anything because of it. They were with Pippen pairing with Jordan.

Put it this way. Ewing, Shaq, Kareem or any other big man didn't win a thing with a bunch of average perimeter players. Jordan and Pippen won again and again with a bunch of average post players (guys in the 5 spot).
 
#108
#108
LawVol13 said:
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think Rodman was a critical part of the last threepeat, and that was because he was physical. And I truly don't think they win the other threepeat without the addition of some physical posts even though they had Pippen.
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For what Chicago would have become without adding Rodman, see Orlando's dismissal of them in the '95 playoffs.
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#110
#110
hatvol96 said:
For what Chicago would have become without adding Rodman, see Orlando's dismissal of them in the '95 playoffs.
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Surely, just getting Jordan back two months before the playoffs after a two year layoff had nothing to do with losing.
 
#113
#113
getyopopcornready said:
Because you said you hope he does well, but just not in New York. It would seem that you would want him to do well in New York. JMO
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I don't want him anywhere close to NY. I've had my fix for JP Prince for the rest of my life. Don't wish anything bad on him, just don't want the headache.
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#114
#114
hatvol96 said:
There are a whole generation of centers with the scars, crooked noses, and missing teeth that can attest to that.
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Bill Cartwright would put you in some pain. And if you pissed him off, he would bury you with that sweet jump shot he had....
 
#115
#115
Bulls also had Horace Grant in the first three-peat. He was a great physical defensive player and a pretty decent offensive game. Bill Cartwrigth and Horace Grant were great players in the middle for that team...
 
#116
#116
"I do think the team that's been the most physical has won the games. I thought it was us for the first three, and I think it's been Orlando for the last two."
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These are some interesting comments from Doc Rivers. Wonder why he wasn't talking about execution?
 
#118
#118
I like Prince--played very well in the tourney last year--but I'll be shocked if he makes it in the NBA. You gotta be strong in at least one aspect of the game to make a mark in the pros, and not sure what that would be with Prince. Ball handling? No. Size? No? Shooting? Ha, ha. He is a good defender...but can't see it. Hope I'm wrong!
 
#119
#119
braths said:
"Doc Rivers shouldn't collect a paycheck because he preaches about obvious things like shot selection."-zehr27.
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Unimane was arguing about physicality not being the difference in the playoffs. I just used that quote to further my point that it is the difference.
 
#120
#120
LawVol13 said:
Unimane was arguing about physicality not being the difference in the playoffs. I just used that quote to further my point that it is the difference.
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One could possibly make the argument that its not as important in todays game, though its a weak one.

To say it wasn't a dominating factor in any play-off series between 88-96 is coo-coo for coco puffs.
 
#121
#121
Hardwood_fanatic said:
One could possibly make the argument that its not as important in todays game, though its a weak one.

To say it wasn't a dominating factor in any play-off series between 88-96 is coo-coo for coco puffs.
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The West is full of finesse teams this year. San Antonio was missing a Stephen Jackson, Kurt Thomas, Bruce Bowen type that would knock people on their ass.

The Lakers have some physicality, but they also have some pansies like Gasol. You watch, when the Celtics make the Finals, their physicality will be too much for LA or Phoenix.
 
#122
#122
LawVol13 said:
The West is full of finesse teams this year. San Antonio was missing a Stephen Jackson, Kurt Thomas, Bruce Bowen type that would knock people on their ass.

The Lakers have some physicality, but they also have some pansies like Gasol. You watch, when the Celtics make the Finals, their physicality will be too much for LA or Phoenix.
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Yeah, that physicality has slowed them down thus far. Maybe those flop calls Paul Pierce draws will slow them down
 
#124
#124
jhall014 said:
Yeah, that physicality has slowed them down thus far. Maybe those flop calls Paul Pierce draws will slow them down
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Gasol's a pansy. He's played one good game this serious. Garnett far and away outplayed him last game, and the only reason the Celtics lost is because Ray Allen decided to go 0-100 from the floor.
 
#125
#125
LawVol13 said:
Gasol's a pansy. He's played one good game this serious. Garnett far and away outplayed him last game, and the only reason the Celtics lost is because Ray Allen decided to go 0-100 from the floor.
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KG is, was, and will always be better than Gasol. Gasol is definitely a pussy, hence why the Lakers lost in '08. And as far as Allen going 0-100 from the field, take a look at my avatar and that'd be your answer as to why Ray tanked
 
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