Kamala Harris ‘ready’ to debate JD Vance

[volbound1700]

Conditions are exactly what you prescribe things based on. I’m lost here.

You say “based on these conditions, this medication is reasonable”

Behavioral actions of the person. Addicts have signs.

 

[Vol8188]

Behavioral actions of the person. Addicts have signs.

Your argument is the opposite of what I’m pushing back against. If they’re already addicts, then the doctor isn’t the problem.

The claim is that this is a problem made by doctors. In your example the addiction came first.

So if the addiction came first, I don’t understand blaming the doctor.

And no doctor can accurately spot all opiate addicts. What specific signs would you look for?

 

[WoodsmanVol]

Good for the doctors you've worked with. Unfortunately that's not been the case for many others. The problem's well documented.

True, especially for the deeper rural America folks. Far as I'm concerned, these doctors are dope dealers, n exploiting rural folks.
---https://www.cbha.org/about-us/cbha-blog/2020/august/small-towns-and-rural-areas-hit-hard-by-opioid-c/
---https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/overdoses-soar-rural-america-clinicians-are-prescribing-addiction-medi-rcna59225
---https://nebraskapublicmedia.org/en/news/news-articles/why-is-the-opioid-epidemic-hitting-rural-america-particularly-hard/

 

[EasternVol]

Your argument is the opposite of what I’m pushing back against. If they’re already addicts, then the doctor isn’t the problem.

The claim is that this is a problem made by doctors. In your example the addiction came first.

So if the addiction came first, I don’t understand blaming the doctor.

And no doctor can accurately spot all opiate addicts. What specific signs would you look for?

Some or many doctors created the supply, which led to widespread recreational use. How difficult is that to understand?

 

[Vol8188]

Some or many doctors created the supply, which led to widespread recreational use. How difficult is that to understand?

Opiate abuse predates the early 2000s. Recreational opiate abuse predates the 2000s.

Recreational opiate use was already here before the first prescription (of any kind) was ever written.

Your supply created the demand model is simply wrong. There’s always been a demand. Now the legal supply has been significantly diminished. Yet we have even more overdose deaths. The problem is not the legal supply from doctors

The problem is not coming from doctors.

 

[volbound1700]

Your argument is the opposite of what I’m pushing back against. If they’re already addicts, then the doctor isn’t the problem.

The claim is that this is a problem made by doctors. In your example the addiction came first.

So if the addiction came first, I don’t understand blaming the doctor.

And no doctor can accurately spot all opiate addicts. What specific signs would you look for?

I ultimately agreed that blaming doctors isn't the win but they could be more guarded. A great example is that when my wife had surgery, they just handed me her various pain medicine and allowed me to freely walk out with it. Granted, in our case it was correct and we didn't order more after the initial batch (in fact WY wife didn't finish it) but that could have been abused.

 

[Vol8188]

I ultimately agreed that blaming doctors isn't the win but they could be more guarded. A great example is that when my wife had surgery, they just handed me her various pain medicine and allowed me to freely walk out with it. Granted, in our case it was correct and we didn't order more after the initial batch (in fact WY wife didn't finish it) but that could have been abused.

What should the surgeon have done? Anything can be abused. You can get high on Benadryl if you want.

It seems very reasonable to give someone’s husband their pain medication given she just came out of surgery and is likely not in a mental state capable of understanding the directions on how to take her medications at the time

 

[volbound1700]

What should the surgeon have done? Anything can be abused. You can get high on Benadryl if you want.

It seems very reasonable to give someone’s husband their pain medication given she just came out of surgery and is likely not in a mental state capable of understanding the directions on how to take her medications at the time

It was a full 24 hours after and she was awake and doing well. Look, I am not advocating for any actions against doctors on it, I am just saying that in situations they could do more. Going off my relative, doctors did try to do something and she fired the doctor and went to another doctor. In that instance, the new doctor should have aligned with the one that was fired and not handed it out.

 

[Vol8188]

It was a full 24 hours after and she was awake and doing well. Look, I am not advocating for any actions against doctors on it, I am just saying that in situations they could do more. Going off my relative, doctors did try to do something and she fired the doctor and went to another doctor. In that instance, the new doctor should have aligned with the one that was fired and not handed it out.

I’m still not understanding what the more is in this example. What was wrong with giving you, your wife’s medication? Why was that bad?

 

[EasternVol]

Opiate abuse predates the early 2000s. Recreational opiate abuse predates the 2000s.

Recreational opiate use was already here before the first prescription (of any kind) was ever written.

Your supply created the demand model is simply wrong. There’s always been a demand. Now the legal supply has been significantly diminished. Yet we have even more overdose deaths. The problem is not the legal supply from doctors

The problem is not coming from doctors.

I'm glad you accept at least a little reality by acknowledging the problem.
The discussion is about prescription opioid abuse. Doctors, incentivized by pharma companies such as Purdue, overprescribed the stuff. Purdue and maybe others intentionally targeted economically depressed areas with their marketing. People shared and many who tried got hooked. Doctors were a key cog in the process. It's well documented. Read up on the lawsuits against Purdue et al.
And J.D. Vance threw in with Purdue.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

Some or many doctors created the supply, which led to widespread recreational use. How difficult is that to understand?

Yes, they did. It benefits them via getting kickbacks from Pharma America. This is nothing new. It's being going on for ages. Indeed, the first DRUG company that really profited from this practice was the tobacco industry.
---https://www.propublica.org/article/we-found-over-700-doctors-who-were-paid-more-than-a-million-dollars-by-drug-and-medical-device-companies
---https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/08/07/biologic-drug-makers-pay-doctors-prescriptions/1943331001/
---https://www.propublica.org/article/we-found-over-700-doctors-who-were-paid-more-than-a-million-dollars-by-drug-and-medical-device-companies

Two points: One, Capitalism, in itself isn't a bad thing, nor is communism, or socialism in fact. The problem is human greed for power, and/or profit. The elite especially exploits the peasants, so to speak. Two, people, as is their nature, end up making a good idea/intent, a tool for greed and power. Which creates misery in the long run. Humans gonna human no matter what.

 

[Vol8188]

People shared and many who tried got hooked.

My doctor always tells me to be sure I share pain pills.

If you want to know why opiates are bad in economic depressed areas, it’s because it’s the only drug the government will buy for you.

I’m familiar with the law suits, the documentaries, etc. it’s all nanny state nonsense. Despite those lawsuits. Despite stricter regulations on both pharmaceutical companies and prescribers, opiate deaths are even higher than they were in the 2000s and 2010s. Why? Because the real problem has never been overly liberal prescribing.

 

[Vol8188]

Yes, they did. It benefits them via getting kickbacks from Pharma America. This is nothing new. It's being going on for ages. Indeed, the first DRUG company that really profited from this practice was the tobacco industry.
---https://www.propublica.org/article/we-found-over-700-doctors-who-were-paid-more-than-a-million-dollars-by-drug-and-medical-device-companies
---https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/08/07/biologic-drug-makers-pay-doctors-prescriptions/1943331001/
---https://www.propublica.org/article/we-found-over-700-doctors-who-were-paid-more-than-a-million-dollars-by-drug-and-medical-device-companies

Two points: One, Capitalism, in itself isn't a bad thing, nor is communism, or socialism in fact. The problem is human greed for power, and/or profit. The elite especially exploits the peasants, so to speak. Two, people, as is their nature, end up making a good idea/intent, a tool for greed and power. Which creates misery in the long run. Humans gonna human no matter what.

Tell me more. Let’s say I start 50 people on vraylar this month. What sweet kickbacks will I get from my vraylar rep?

Or…did they put numerous regulations on this years ago, and yet the problem (opiate abuse) still not only continues but is far worse today than it was prior to those regulations?

It’s almost as if this (kickbacks from drug reps) was never the problem at all…..

 

[InVOLuntary]

Alot of hurt feeling in this thread about Vance...seems like it a repeat of the same "mean tweets" that Trump gets...and for that being the big issue and then calling someone else oversensitive seems funny to me.

They complain about Trump being too sensitive. Then they freak out about his tweets.

 

[Vol8188]

Opiate prescriptions now vs 2006 are roughly half as many

Opiate deaths are roughly 4x as many.

The “this is because of pharmaceutical companies and doctors” narrative doesn’t work and it’s not backed by the data.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

Tell me more. Let’s say I start 50 people on vraylar this month. What sweet kickbacks will I get from my vraylar rep?

Or…did they put numerous regulations on this years ago, and yet the problem (opiate abuse) still not only continues but is far worse today than it was prior to those regulations?

It’s almost as if this (kickbacks from drug reps) was never the problem at all…..

i don't believe you want to know. You just want to wiggle like a worm, slither like a snake, and waddle like a duck to huckle buck around the topic to suit your own preconceived notions.

 

[EasternVol]

My doctor always tells me to be sure I share pain pills.

If you want to know why opiates are bad in economic depressed areas, it’s because it’s the only drug the government will buy for you.

I’m familiar with the law suits, the documentaries, etc. it’s all nanny state nonsense. Despite those lawsuits. Despite stricter regulations on both pharmaceutical companies and prescribers, opiate deaths are even higher than they were in the 2000s and 2010s. Why? Because the real problem has never been overly liberal prescribing.

Of course you'll believe and argue for your side regardless of established facts. The pharma companies' bad faith marketing incentivizing doctors in flyover country to overprescribe their pill, that's been established in court, is all just made up per you. Have fun in your world of alternate realities.

 

[Vol8188]

Of course you'll believe and argue for your side regardless of established facts. The pharma companies' bad faith marketing incentivizing doctors in flyover country to overprescribe their pill, that's been established in court, is all just made up per you. Have fun in your world of alternate realities.

Despite those lawsuits, new regulations, and less opioids being prescribed, is the epidemic better or worse today than it was then?

If you agree that it’s worse now, then it seems the doctors and pharmaceutical companies weren’t the problem

 

[Vol8188]

i don't believe you want to know. You just want to wiggle like a worm, slither like a snake, and waddle like a duck to huckle buck around the topic to suit your own preconceived notions.

You didn’t answer the question. Can my drug reps legally provide we with large value incentives?

If not, then maybe that was never the problem

 

[NurseGoodVol]

Conditions are exactly what you prescribe things based on. I’m lost here.

You say “based on these conditions, this medication is reasonable”

We are now at a point where people are being under prescribed for those same conditions they would give opioids for before.
We have swung in the opposite direction from what I’ve seen and experienced.

 

[Vol8188]

We are now at a point where people are being under prescribed for those same conditions they would give opioids for before.
We have swung in the opposite direction from what I’ve seen and experienced.

Agreed. Tooth aches for example can be horrific pain. But I don’t give anything stronger than gabapentin for them because every addict in the country has bad teeth. So you get augmentin and maybe gabapentin if I think your pain is really bad.

Granted some will still give you Tylenol 3 (and I don’t think they’re wrong to do so).

 

[WoodsmanVol]

You didn’t answer the question. Can my drug reps legally provide we with large value incentives?

If not, then maybe that was never the problem

I will tell you the most shocking, amazing, and undeniable truth about your question. I'm neither your doctor, nor your drug rep. Now, now, yep, now, my question for you. The previous statement being true, why did you ask me that question. Oh yeah! Wiggle like a worn, slither like a snake, waddle like a duck to huckle buck around the topic.

 

[Vol8188]

I will tell you the most shocking, amazing, and undeniable truth about your question. I'm neither your doctor, nor your drug rep. Now, now, yep, now, my question for you. The previous statement being true, why did you ask me that question. Oh yeah! Wiggle like a worn, slither like a snake, waddle like a duck to huckle buck around the topic.

Because you claimed the doctors were getting kickbacks for prescribing. So what can I get? Can they give me cash? A new car? A trip to Ireland?

Or are there regulations against all of that and yet this problem persists and has even worsened since those regulations went into place?

 

[NurseGoodVol]

Agreed. Tooth aches for example can be horrific pain. But I don’t give anything stronger than gabapentin for them because every addict in the country has bad teeth. So you get augmentin and maybe gabapentin if I think your pain is really bad.

Granted some will still give you Tylenol 3 (and I don’t think they’re wrong to do so).

Once the infection is dealt with the pain also goes too. I believe that’s a judicious use of meds.

I’m seeing 2nd years prescribing extra Tylenol for sickle cell crisis. I pose to them do you actually think Tylenol will take their pain to a manageable level? They are scared to give opioids when they are actually needed and the patient objectively are in high level of pain.

We also have nurses that are clueless when too much is too much. Just because it’s prescribed doesn’t mean you can just give it without thinking. They obtund the pt. I had to request narcan x2 just last week in rapid response team due to just that issue.

I precept baby nurses and I emphasize pain recognition and response.
I have a small sphere of influence and I continue to try to educate.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

Because you claimed the doctors were getting kickbacks for prescribing. So what can I get? Can they give me cash? A new car? A trip to Ireland?

Or are there regulations against all of that and yet this problem persists and has even worsened since those regulations went into place?

And I provided links to back up my claim. Clearly, you aren't interested in sources that provide validity to my post. You only want to dance and weasel around the truth to either: Feel good about yourself. Or put on a show for your fellow MAGAG-gots here. Shoo fly, don't me.